Sadiq Khan

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Mapletree Croydon 14 Nov 18 10.55am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Have you ever asked yourself why you feel it necessary to defend them? Had it occurred to you that the criticism is directed toward what some Muslims have done and the unacceptable nature of some Islamic attitudes rather than Muslims in general. Or would you rather be an apologist for these things and claim that people are 'Islamophobic' just to stifle debate? Yesterday a person in my extended family was mugged by a Black person in Croydon. Do I blame all Black people? No Are street muggings in Croydon almost always committed by Black people? Yep. I know you would rather ignore that fact and come up with some old crap about poverty or upbringing and say nothing about personal responsibility or predisposition. I don't defend them I merely question the objectivity of people that appear highly single-minded in their dislike of all things Muslim.
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Mapletree

Croydon 14 Nov 18 10.55am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Have you ever asked yourself why you feel it necessary to defend them?
Had it occurred to you that the criticism is directed toward what some Muslims have done and the unacceptable nature of some Islamic attitudes rather than Muslims in general.
Or would you rather be an apologist for these things and claim that people are 'Islamophobic' just to stifle debate?

Yesterday a person in my extended family was mugged by a Black person in Croydon. Do I blame all Black people?
No
Are street muggings in Croydon almost always committed by Black people? Yep.
I know you would rather ignore that fact and come up with some old crap about poverty or upbringing and say nothing about personal responsibility or predisposition.

I don't defend them

I merely question the objectivity of people that appear highly single-minded in their dislike of all things Muslim.

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Mapletree Croydon 14 Nov 18 10.58am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Sorry for the late reply I've been ill. I didn't take it that personally I suppose I have a constant bee in my bonnet over the dynamics on the left's obsessive defence of Islam....Not forgetting that you have a perfect right to type that and this is just the cut and thrust of debate. I think we are all sensitive nowadays because in my view identity politics is the inevitable consequences of demographic change and this is the path we are on. You feel you're defending a principle whereas I think that principle is in a sense from an era that's already past...I see the principle in it though. Regardless when it comes to Khan this wasn't about Islam but you're right we criticise religion here. I'm amongst the harshest critic of Islam both its extreme but also to a lesser extent the expediency found in its mainstream.....But when it comes to secular Muslims my concern isn't really there. (though I know Khan makes advantage of of his demographic but he wouldn't be a politician if he didn't do that) May your illness be short and non-extreme I was reading about the Raj last night, mostly the Muslims were the good guys as far as I could make out. Their religion did not appear to be in contradiction to the British. It came more from the Hindu side to portray Muslims as a 'race' rather than just another bunch of Indians with a different religion.
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Mapletree

Croydon 14 Nov 18 10.58am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Sorry for the late reply I've been ill.

I didn't take it that personally I suppose I have a constant bee in my bonnet over the dynamics on the left's obsessive defence of Islam....Not forgetting that you have a perfect right to type that and this is just the cut and thrust of debate.

I think we are all sensitive nowadays because in my view identity politics is the inevitable consequences of demographic change and this is the path we are on. You feel you're defending a principle whereas I think that principle is in a sense from an era that's already past...I see the principle in it though.

Regardless when it comes to Khan this wasn't about Islam but you're right we criticise religion here. I'm amongst the harshest critic of Islam both its extreme but also to a lesser extent the expediency found in its mainstream.....But when it comes to secular Muslims my concern isn't really there. (though I know Khan makes advantage of of his demographic but he wouldn't be a politician if he didn't do that)

May your illness be short and non-extreme

I was reading about the Raj last night, mostly the Muslims were the good guys as far as I could make out. Their religion did not appear to be in contradiction to the British. It came more from the Hindu side to portray Muslims as a 'race' rather than just another bunch of Indians with a different religion.

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Stirlingsays 14 Nov 18 11.10am
Originally posted by Mapletree May your illness be short and non-extreme I was reading about the Raj last night, mostly the Muslims were the good guys as far as I could make out. Their religion did not appear to be in contradiction to the British. It came more from the Hindu side to portray Muslims as a 'race' rather than just another bunch of Indians with a different religion. You make an important point. There isn't a race of Muslims it's an religion that promotes certain ideas. Amongst the more pious or to be fair most literal of the religion those ideas bring it into conflict with western ones....in my view. This isn't anywhere near as true with Hinduism or Sikhism. Both religions that have taken root here but like Judaism don't clash with western values..with exceptions (arranged marriage perhaps). Personally I'm all about ensuring that England still has a high majority within it who consider themselves English in a hundred years. Otherwise I don't see it remaining England....and the English have a right to their own country. So like the Japanese and other countries I agree with limiting the population of groups that aren't English or from home countries. That said, I think I'm on the losing side. But this desire is a very motivating factor amongst many...for example pakistan wouldn't exist without this similar tribal motivation......As we know from other demographics, people vote or think one way in their own countries and vote and think another elsewhere. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2018 11.13am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Nov 18 11.10am

Originally posted by Mapletree

May your illness be short and non-extreme

You make an important point. There isn't a race of Muslims it's an religion that promotes certain ideas. Amongst the more pious or to be fair most literal of the religion those ideas bring it into conflict with western ones....in my view.

This isn't anywhere near as true with Hinduism or Sikhism. Both religions that have taken root here but like Judaism don't clash with western values..with exceptions (arranged marriage perhaps).

Personally I'm all about ensuring that England still has a high majority within it who consider themselves English in a hundred years. Otherwise I don't see it remaining England....and the English have a right to their own country. So like the Japanese and other countries I agree with limiting the population of groups that aren't English or from home countries.

That said, I think I'm on the losing side.

But this desire is a very motivating factor amongst many...for example pakistan wouldn't exist without this similar tribal motivation......As we know from other demographics, people vote or think one way in their own countries and vote and think another elsewhere.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2018 11.13am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 14 Nov 18 11.25am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays You make an important point. There isn't a race of Muslims it's an religion that promotes certain ideas. Amongst the more pious or to be fair most literal of the religion those ideas bring it into conflict with western ones....in my view. This isn't anywhere near as true with Hinduism or Sikhism. Both religions that have taken root here but like Judaism don't clash with western values..with exceptions (arranged marriage perhaps). Personally I'm all about ensuring that England still has a high majority within it who consider themselves English in a hundred years. Otherwise I don't see it remaining England....and the English have a right to their own country. So like the Japanese and other countries I agree with limiting the population of groups that aren't English or from home countries. That said, I think I'm on the losing side. But this desire is a very motivating factor amongst many...for example pakistan wouldn't exist without this similar tribal motivation......As we know from other demographics, people vote or think one way in their own countries and vote and think another elsewhere. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2018 11.13am) As I read it, the Muslims didn't originally want pakistan to be a separate country. That was more driven by the Hindus who feared the political clout of the Muslims would have too much influence.
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Mapletree

Croydon 14 Nov 18 11.25am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

This isn't anywhere near as true with Hinduism or Sikhism. Both religions that have taken root here but like Judaism don't clash with western values..with exceptions (arranged marriage perhaps).

That said, I think I'm on the losing side.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2018 11.13am)

As I read it, the Muslims didn't originally want pakistan to be a separate country. That was more driven by the Hindus who feared the political clout of the Muslims would have too much influence.

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 18 11.37am
Originally posted by Mapletree I don't defend them I merely question the objectivity of people that appear highly single-minded in their dislike of all things Muslim. So what do you mean by all things Muslim? You criticise others for having a simple minded attitude to the subject and then make blanket statements. The fact is that from a Western secular perspective, there is much to criticise about Islamic culture.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Nov 18 11.37am

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Originally posted by Mapletree

I don't defend them

I merely question the objectivity of people that appear highly single-minded in their dislike of all things Muslim.

So what do you mean by all things Muslim?

You criticise others for having a simple minded attitude to the subject and then make blanket statements.
The fact is that from a Western secular perspective, there is much to criticise about Islamic culture.

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Stirlingsays 14 Nov 18 11.46am
Originally posted by Mapletree As I read it, the Muslims didn't originally want pakistan to be a separate country. That was more driven by the Hindus who feared the political clout of the Muslims would have too much influence. If we were going to look seriously at it I don't think something as massive as that separation can be attributed to just one factor but I think we can safety say a state for Muslims was not forced upon many Muslims. However, it's also true to say that huge numbers of Muslims died for a political divide that wasn't of their choosing. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Nov 18 11.46am

Originally posted by Mapletree

As I read it, the Muslims didn't originally want pakistan to be a separate country. That was more driven by the Hindus who feared the political clout of the Muslims would have too much influence.

If we were going to look seriously at it I don't think something as massive as that separation can be attributed to just one factor but I think we can safety say a state for Muslims was not forced upon many Muslims.

However, it's also true to say that huge numbers of Muslims died for a political divide that wasn't of their choosing.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 18 11.51am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays If we were going to look seriously at it I don't think something as massive as that separation can be attributed to just one factor but I think we can safety say a state for Muslims was not forced upon many Muslims. However, it's also true to say that huge numbers of Muslims died for a political divide that wasn't of their choosing. In any similar situation, you will always have those that are active and those that would prefer it all to just go away while they live their lives.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Nov 18 11.51am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

However, it's also true to say that huge numbers of Muslims died for a political divide that wasn't of their choosing.

In any similar situation, you will always have those that are active and those that would prefer it all to just go away while they live their lives.

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Stirlingsays 14 Nov 18 12.09pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger In any similar situation, you will always have those that are active and those that would prefer it all to just go away while they live their lives. Yep, for example it's a truth lost on many that most Germans weren't Nazis or particularly pro Nazi.....but when it comes to choosing sides in a conflict they aren't going to turn on their own.....Rommel is a good example of this. But we all know that it's the small number of elites at the top who get to speak for everybody and that we are all tarred by that brush. Many of those who marched about the Iraq war and so on know all about that.....though I supported it, though I doubt the certainty of my position now. The common man is subject to the whims of their rulers.....and I'm not supporter of our current one nor of the opposition alternatives. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Nov 18 12.09pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

In any similar situation, you will always have those that are active and those that would prefer it all to just go away while they live their lives.

Yep, for example it's a truth lost on many that most Germans weren't Nazis or particularly pro Nazi.....but when it comes to choosing sides in a conflict they aren't going to turn on their own.....Rommel is a good example of this.

But we all know that it's the small number of elites at the top who get to speak for everybody and that we are all tarred by that brush.

Many of those who marched about the Iraq war and so on know all about that.....though I supported it, though I doubt the certainty of my position now.

The common man is subject to the whims of their rulers.....and I'm not supporter of our current one nor of the opposition alternatives.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 18 Nov 18 2.41pm
Sadiq Khan criticised over 60 per cent rise in staff costs at City Hall since taking office [Link]
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 18 Nov 18 2.41pm

Sadiq Khan criticised over 60 per cent rise in staff costs at City Hall since taking office [Link]

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.08pm
'Water cannon bought by Boris Johnson for �322k sold for just �11k after police banned from using them' [Link] I had a look into this a bit more as I couldn't remember the details of the original story a few years ago. Yes, government should spend every penny likes it's their own and �300k wasted is terrible. However, it is is pittance compared to Sadiq's plan to spend �6m on toilets for bus drivers. Boris' intention was to save the tax payer money because the three second-hand cannon would have cost �2.4m new. The German Federal Police put a deadline on the purchase, hence the rush to buy them before approval. And who was the home secretary that was seen as taking too much time to decide if they should be granted a licence on the mainland? Theresa May. It came at the very time she was looking to fight off Boris as a leadership rival for the Tory party. She later used it as political capital against Boris. Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Nov 2018 1.09pm)
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.08pm

'Water cannon bought by Boris Johnson for �322k sold for just �11k after police banned from using them' [Link]

I had a look into this a bit more as I couldn't remember the details of the original story a few years ago.

Yes, government should spend every penny likes it's their own and �300k wasted is terrible. However, it is is pittance compared to Sadiq's plan to spend �6m on toilets for bus drivers.

Boris' intention was to save the tax payer money because the three second-hand cannon would have cost �2.4m new. The German Federal Police put a deadline on the purchase, hence the rush to buy them before approval.

And who was the home secretary that was seen as taking too much time to decide if they should be granted a licence on the mainland? Theresa May. It came at the very time she was looking to fight off Boris as a leadership rival for the Tory party. She later used it as political capital against Boris.

Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Nov 2018 1.09pm)

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Badger11 Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.17pm
Originally posted by Penge Eagle 'Water cannon bought by Boris Johnson for �322k sold for just �11k after police banned from using them' [Link] I had a look into this a bit more as I couldn't remember the details of the original story a few years ago. Yes, government should spend every penny likes it's their own and �300k wasted is terrible. However, it is is pittance compared to Sadiq's plan to spend �6m on toilets for bus drivers. Boris' intention was to save the tax payer money because the three second-hand cannon would have cost �2.4m new. The German Federal Police put a deadline on the purchase, hence the rush to buy them before approval. And who was the home secretary that was seen as taking too much time to decide if they should be granted a licence on the mainland? Theresa May. It came at the very time she was looking to fight off Boris as a leadership rival for the Tory party. She later used it as political capital against Boris. Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Nov 2018 1.09pm) I would have loved to have used the water cannons I would have added some soap as some of the demonstrators clearly need a bath. I'm afraid that Boris has the negotiating skills of Theresa May. The Germans put a deadline on the sale and he blinked. As we couldn't give them away I don't think there were other buyers queuing up he should have stood firm and got approval first to use them. It was always a gamble because water cannon has never been used on the UK mainland and in London's narrow streets could cause a lot of damage. That said I think the idiots who closed 5 bridges should have had a dose or as Napoleon said "a whiff of grapeshot". One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.17pm

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

'Water cannon bought by Boris Johnson for �322k sold for just �11k after police banned from using them' [Link]

I had a look into this a bit more as I couldn't remember the details of the original story a few years ago.

Yes, government should spend every penny likes it's their own and �300k wasted is terrible. However, it is is pittance compared to Sadiq's plan to spend �6m on toilets for bus drivers.

Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Nov 2018 1.09pm)

I would have loved to have used the water cannons I would have added some soap as some of the demonstrators clearly need a bath.

I'm afraid that Boris has the negotiating skills of Theresa May. The Germans put a deadline on the sale and he blinked. As we couldn't give them away I don't think there were other buyers queuing up he should have stood firm and got approval first to use them.

It was always a gamble because water cannon has never been used on the UK mainland and in London's narrow streets could cause a lot of damage. That said I think the idiots who closed 5 bridges should have had a dose or as Napoleon said "a whiff of grapeshot".

One more point

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.29pm
The sensible thing would have been Boris and May having a sensible discussion about it before writing the cheque. But that would be too easy, wouldn't it.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.29pm

The sensible thing would have been Boris and May having a sensible discussion about it before writing the cheque. But that would be too easy, wouldn't it.

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