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Ginger Pubic Wig Wickham de L'Ouest 20 Jan 19 9.14pm
Sterling... This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit. Merit: the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward. Equity: the quality of being fair and impartial Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment. and please desist from accusations of hyperbole or I'll just not bother and you can claim your debating victory. I already said I was using extremes to make a point and I just can't be arsed with needly remarks like that. If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.
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Ginger Pubic Wig

Wickham de L'Ouest 20 Jan 19 9.14pm

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Sterling...
This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit.

Merit:
the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

Equity:
the quality of being fair and impartial

Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment.

and please desist from accusations of hyperbole or I'll just not bother and you can claim your debating victory. I already said I was using extremes to make a point and I just can't be arsed with needly remarks like that.

If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.

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becky over the moon 20 Jan 19 9.28pm
Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig Sterling... This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit. Merit: the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward. Equity: the quality of being fair and impartial Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment. and please desist from accusations of hyperbole or I'll just not bother and you can claim your debating victory. I already said I was using extremes to make a point and I just can't be arsed with needly remarks like that. In short, the great British tradition of support for the underdog A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 20 Jan 19 9.28pm

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

Sterling...
This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit.

Merit:
the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

Equity:
the quality of being fair and impartial

Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment.

In short, the great British tradition of support for the underdog

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 20 Jan 19 9.29pm
Originally posted by OllieMaidstoneEagle They've been "Offered" places but what are the chances of them actually "Getting" places.As a born and bred south-east-working-class-Londoner I'm very lucky to have had 3 of my kids graduate from Uni and even more lucky that they're all in employment in jobs that they studied for,graphic design,fine art and illustration. Ollie's Dad,Ash. They are probably going to be working on Sting's new album cover. Pro USA & Israel
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Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 20 Jan 19 9.29pm

Originally posted by OllieMaidstoneEagle

They've been "Offered" places but what are the chances of them actually "Getting" places.As a born and bred south-east-working-class-Londoner I'm very lucky to have had 3 of my kids graduate from Uni and even more lucky that they're all in employment in jobs that they studied for,graphic design,fine art and illustration. Ollie's Dad,Ash.

They are probably going to be working on Sting's new album cover.

Pro USA & Israel

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Ginger Pubic Wig Wickham de L'Ouest 20 Jan 19 9.32pm
Originally posted by becky In short, the great British tradition of support for the underdog he asked me to justify the crossover between equity and merit. so I did. If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.
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Ginger Pubic Wig

Wickham de L'Ouest 20 Jan 19 9.32pm

Originally posted by becky

In short, the great British tradition of support for the underdog

he asked me to justify the crossover between equity and merit. so I did.

If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.

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Hrolf The Ganger 20 Jan 19 9.40pm
Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig Sterling... This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit. Merit: the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward. Equity: the quality of being fair and impartial Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment. and please desist from accusations of hyperbole or I'll just not bother and you can claim your debating victory. I already said I was using extremes to make a point and I just can't be arsed with needly remarks like that. As a cynic or perhaps a realist, I would suggest that when students like these are selected for a hand up it is purely to promote the idea that anyone can succeed in our society. In theory, they can I suppose but in reality, social position and circumstances prevent most from doing so. Tokenisms just tell us that the idea of equal opportunity is a fantasy that the ruling class wish to sell us so we all feel happy and content like the happy shoppers we are. The Left should not be promoting these stories but condemning them. Not that it will make an ounce of difference.
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Hrolf The Ganger

20 Jan 19 9.40pm

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Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

Sterling...
This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit.

Merit:
the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

Equity:
the quality of being fair and impartial

Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment.

As a cynic or perhaps a realist, I would suggest that when students like these are selected for a hand up it is purely to promote the idea that anyone can succeed in our society.
In theory, they can I suppose but in reality, social position and circumstances prevent most from doing so.

Tokenisms just tell us that the idea of equal opportunity is a fantasy that the ruling class wish to sell us so we all feel happy and content like the happy shoppers we are.
The Left should not be promoting these stories but condemning them. Not that it will make an ounce of difference.

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Stirlingsays Online 20 Jan 19 9.54pm
Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig Sterling... This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit. Merit: the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward. Equity: the quality of being fair and impartial Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment. and please desist from accusations of hyperbole or I'll just not bother and you can claim your debating victory. I already said I was using extremes to make a point and I just can't be arsed with needly remarks like that. The crossover here is entirely your own. You attach value judgements to class and I don't think that should have a place in how meritocratic systems operate. I certainly share some concerns over working class access to systems designed by the middle and higher classes but I'm critical of these methods. To use a footballing example, essentially it doesn't matter whether the footballer in your first eleven comes from a middle class background or a working class background....what matters is that they merit their place in the team as the best available to you. If you start to introduce value judgements away from sheer merit you cannot also claim to advocate meritocracy in the same way I do....as yours is an advocacy of meritocracy with strings attached. As for the use of extremes in your examples....I criticised that because extreme examples are surly not a rational way to judge whether a policy is sensible or not. The fact that you said you would use them isn't an exclusion from commentary on that.....however I assure you, I'm not really looking for debating victories here or even trying to alter your view....but rather just exploring the topic in my usual direct way. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jan 2019 10.15pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

20 Jan 19 9.54pm

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

Sterling...
This is what I mean by a crossover between equity and merit.

Merit:
the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

Equity:
the quality of being fair and impartial

Crossover: it's fair to get what you deserve. A person who rises up from nothing deserves more in my book than somebody born to great privilege who 'makes par' in their educational attainment.

The crossover here is entirely your own.

You attach value judgements to class and I don't think that should have a place in how meritocratic systems operate. I certainly share some concerns over working class access to systems designed by the middle and higher classes but I'm critical of these methods.

To use a footballing example, essentially it doesn't matter whether the footballer in your first eleven comes from a middle class background or a working class background....what matters is that they merit their place in the team as the best available to you. If you start to introduce value judgements away from sheer merit you cannot also claim to advocate meritocracy in the same way I do....as yours is an advocacy of meritocracy with strings attached.

As for the use of extremes in your examples....I criticised that because extreme examples are surly not a rational way to judge whether a policy is sensible or not. The fact that you said you would use them isn't an exclusion from commentary on that.....however I assure you, I'm not really looking for debating victories here or even trying to alter your view....but rather just exploring the topic in my usual direct way.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jan 2019 10.15pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Ginger Pubic Wig Wickham de L'Ouest 21 Jan 19 6.54am
Sterling... Merit is partly about what you deserve, based on the definition I gave and fairly wide recognition of the word. So a meritocracy is based on what you deserve. And it is fair to get what you deserve. Why is that a construct by me? A golfer who's never had coaching but regularly makes par after learning to play in the garden using a stick and a tennis ball deserves more investment in his game -- in my view-- than the one who does the same but got coached one on one from the age of 4 with all the best equipment. If I was Golf England, looking for the next superstar, I know which one I'd invest in. I'd instinctively think somebody who achieved a lot with so little was the better bet. And as for your footballing analogy...again, I would look at natural ability if I were a manager. Player 1 who's been coached for thousands of hours and is roughly the same as player 2, who hasn't...I would invest a hell of lot of time in player 2 because I'd think "f*** me, he grew up on the streets, never got coached, and is doing this already". Ian Wright is an example. Raw but with far more potential than many established pros who probably got into clubs from a very young age. He had loads of flaws in his game, and on many levels was missing key techniques...but he was worth the investment. I care about direction of travel in an individual. If you think that's a class judgement, then I would strongly disagree. I think it's meritocratic to look at a starting point because it speaks to potential. If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.
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Ginger Pubic Wig

Wickham de L'Ouest 21 Jan 19 6.54am

Sterling...

Merit is partly about what you deserve, based on the definition I gave and fairly wide recognition of the word. So a meritocracy is based on what you deserve. And it is fair to get what you deserve. Why is that a construct by me?

A golfer who's never had coaching but regularly makes par after learning to play in the garden using a stick and a tennis ball deserves more investment in his game -- in my view-- than the one who does the same but got coached one on one from the age of 4 with all the best equipment.

If I was Golf England, looking for the next superstar, I know which one I'd invest in.

I'd instinctively think somebody who achieved a lot with so little was the better bet.

And as for your footballing analogy...again, I would look at natural ability if I were a manager. Player 1 who's been coached for thousands of hours and is roughly the same as player 2, who hasn't...I would invest a hell of lot of time in player 2 because I'd think "f*** me, he grew up on the streets, never got coached, and is doing this already".

Ian Wright is an example. Raw but with far more potential than many established pros who probably got into clubs from a very young age. He had loads of flaws in his game, and on many levels was missing key techniques...but he was worth the investment.

I care about direction of travel in an individual. If you think that's a class judgement, then I would strongly disagree. I think it's meritocratic to look at a starting point because it speaks to potential.

If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 21 Jan 19 1.42pm
I come from a poor family and got a scholarship to public school through a previous Tory government. It was hard as I was always an outsider. I think the most embarrassing was my free second hand uniform, being the only one with a school dinner ticket and not being able to afford any of the school trips or activities. I roughed it out and did well. I went on to get a research council and EU grant for university and ended up with a doctorate. I'm a teacher and lecturer now - trying to give something back. Best of luck to the kids who make it. I hope someone tells them there will be hard times and just to stick with it through thick and thin. Hopefully, they will do better than all the toffs, as they will be there on merit, rather than through financial clout. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 21 Jan 19 1.42pm

I come from a poor family and got a scholarship to public school through a previous Tory government. It was hard as I was always an outsider. I think the most embarrassing was my free second hand uniform, being the only one with a school dinner ticket and not being able to afford any of the school trips or activities. I roughed it out and did well.
I went on to get a research council and EU grant for university and ended up with a doctorate. I'm a teacher and lecturer now - trying to give something back. Best of luck to the kids who make it. I hope someone tells them there will be hard times and just to stick with it through thick and thin. Hopefully, they will do better than all the toffs, as they will be there on merit, rather than through financial clout.

Red and Blue Army!

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Matov 21 Jan 19 1.56pm
Earlier this year I was up in Oxford with one of my kids who was interested in one of the courses on offer. Firstly I get why people rave about it. The colleges are incredible and if you could design your own version of heaven, then I suspect mine would look a lot like many of those admittedly with an Adriatic beach nearby. An absolutely incredible place but I can also see the danger in why it produces an elite out of touch with the grimmer realities of UK life. We attended a talk on admissions. The lady stressed that Oxford was desperate to attract more state school kids. But they had to apply. That was the point. My kid's school were useless when it came to offering advice to my child. She still might apply as she is predicted to get the grades but the reality is that many state schools are to blame for not preparing the kids in advance as Oxbridge entry differs from all the rest. That is why the Private schools keep their stranglehold on Oxbridge because they prepare their pupils in advance and support them. Well done to these kids but more than that, well done to their school for creating an environment in which they have the cajones to go for it. That is the crucial element here. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

21 Jan 19 1.56pm

Earlier this year I was up in Oxford with one of my kids who was interested in one of the courses on offer.

Firstly I get why people rave about it. The colleges are incredible and if you could design your own version of heaven, then I suspect mine would look a lot like many of those admittedly with an Adriatic beach nearby.

An absolutely incredible place but I can also see the danger in why it produces an elite out of touch with the grimmer realities of UK life.

We attended a talk on admissions. The lady stressed that Oxford was desperate to attract more state school kids. But they had to apply. That was the point. My kid's school were useless when it came to offering advice to my child. She still might apply as she is predicted to get the grades but the reality is that many state schools are to blame for not preparing the kids in advance as Oxbridge entry differs from all the rest. That is why the Private schools keep their stranglehold on Oxbridge because they prepare their pupils in advance and support them.

Well done to these kids but more than that, well done to their school for creating an environment in which they have the cajones to go for it. That is the crucial element here.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Badger11 Beckenham 21 Jan 19 2.11pm
Originally posted by Matov Earlier this year I was up in Oxford with one of my kids who was interested in one of the courses on offer. Firstly I get why people rave about it. The colleges are incredible and if you could design your own version of heaven, then I suspect mine would look a lot like many of those admittedly with an Adriatic beach nearby. An absolutely incredible place but I can also see the danger in why it produces an elite out of touch with the grimmer realities of UK life. We attended a talk on admissions. The lady stressed that Oxford was desperate to attract more state school kids. But they had to apply. That was the point. My kid's school were useless when it came to offering advice to my child. She still might apply as she is predicted to get the grades but the reality is that many state schools are to blame for not preparing the kids in advance as Oxbridge entry differs from all the rest. That is why the Private schools keep their stranglehold on Oxbridge because they prepare their pupils in advance and support them. Well done to these kids but more than that, well done to their school for creating an environment in which they have the cajones to go for it. That is the crucial element here. Good post. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 21 Jan 19 2.11pm

Originally posted by Matov

Earlier this year I was up in Oxford with one of my kids who was interested in one of the courses on offer.

An absolutely incredible place but I can also see the danger in why it produces an elite out of touch with the grimmer realities of UK life.

Well done to these kids but more than that, well done to their school for creating an environment in which they have the cajones to go for it. That is the crucial element here.

Good post.

One more point

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chris123 hove actually 21 Jan 19 2.21pm
Originally posted by Matov Earlier this year I was up in Oxford with one of my kids who was interested in one of the courses on offer. Firstly I get why people rave about it. The colleges are incredible and if you could design your own version of heaven, then I suspect mine would look a lot like many of those admittedly with an Adriatic beach nearby. An absolutely incredible place but I can also see the danger in why it produces an elite out of touch with the grimmer realities of UK life. We attended a talk on admissions. The lady stressed that Oxford was desperate to attract more state school kids. But they had to apply. That was the point. My kid's school were useless when it came to offering advice to my child. She still might apply as she is predicted to get the grades but the reality is that many state schools are to blame for not preparing the kids in advance as Oxbridge entry differs from all the rest. That is why the Private schools keep their stranglehold on Oxbridge because they prepare their pupils in advance and support them. Well done to these kids but more than that, well done to their school for creating an environment in which they have the cajones to go for it. That is the crucial element here. Not sure I understand, your child passed the Oxford entrance test, or your visit was part of a process and they haven't sat yet?
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chris123

hove actually 21 Jan 19 2.21pm

Originally posted by Matov

Earlier this year I was up in Oxford with one of my kids who was interested in one of the courses on offer.

An absolutely incredible place but I can also see the danger in why it produces an elite out of touch with the grimmer realities of UK life.

Well done to these kids but more than that, well done to their school for creating an environment in which they have the cajones to go for it. That is the crucial element here.

Not sure I understand, your child passed the Oxford entrance test, or your visit was part of a process and they haven't sat yet?

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Matov 21 Jan 19 3.04pm
Originally posted by chris123 Not sure I understand, your child passed the Oxford entrance test, or your visit was part of a process and they haven't sat yet? It was an open day. She was interested in starting off the process to sit the entrance test but recieved such mixed messages from her school that it put her off. She still has 5 offers from Russel Group Universities so no harm done but the message from Oxford was that they were desperate for more state sector kids to come there, and were willing to take a tolerant view of less than steller GCSE results (my kid got straight A's and A* so no issue there) when viewed against an average for the school. If my kid gets straight A's at A levels then she might defer Uni for a year and apply to Oxford but they will be despite her schoo, not because of it. But the kids had to apply and their schools needed to support them. That is the bigger issue. We made a huge mistake in encouraging our child to stay on at her schools 6th form and will not be doing so with our second but Oxford could not have been more honest about desperately wanting to attract kids from the state sector. Edited by Matov (21 Jan 2019 3.05pm) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

21 Jan 19 3.04pm

Originally posted by chris123

Not sure I understand, your child passed the Oxford entrance test, or your visit was part of a process and they haven't sat yet?

It was an open day. She was interested in starting off the process to sit the entrance test but recieved such mixed messages from her school that it put her off. She still has 5 offers from Russel Group Universities so no harm done but the message from Oxford was that they were desperate for more state sector kids to come there, and were willing to take a tolerant view of less than steller GCSE results (my kid got straight A's and A* so no issue there) when viewed against an average for the school. If my kid gets straight A's at A levels then she might defer Uni for a year and apply to Oxford but they will be despite her schoo, not because of it.

But the kids had to apply and their schools needed to support them. That is the bigger issue. We made a huge mistake in encouraging our child to stay on at her schools 6th form and will not be doing so with our second but Oxford could not have been more honest about desperately wanting to attract kids from the state sector.

Edited by Matov (21 Jan 2019 3.05pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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