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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 10 Sep 19 10.37pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Yes but i did say I posted that a million posts ago I.e. just after the vote. 3 years later and standing by a vote no matter how democratic is outweighed by the need to break the impasse with a second referendum.

But the impasse is the problem. This refusal to accept that we have voted to leave. That our future is not as part of the European Union.

And how would a Remain vote break the impasse? It makes things even worse than they are at the moment. The UK does not return to how things were. Wjy should Leavers accept the result of another referendum when people such as yourself refused to accept the first one?

As I have said, revoking A50 makes a lot more sense than a farce of a second referendum because all that does is cement the divide even more. Revoke still brings with it a lot of anger but that is aimed at 650 MP's. Not millions of others.

If you believe in democracy in any recognisable form then Remain has to be off the table.

Edited by Matov (10 Sep 2019 10.41pm)

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Sep 19 10.42pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

Listen, if I had promised to take my wife anywhere it wouldnt be in anyones interest to renege on the deal....

To take no deal off the table means that the EU negotiators hold all the cards, we have nowhere to go....rather like walking into a car showroom and stating 'Im gonna buy a car from you no matter what deal you either give or dont give me, Ill pay whatever you want. THe salesman would be laughing at you, rather like the EU is laughing now, they have us by the short and curlies..

You would take your wife to a hurricane devastated country would you? Not pause for a moment and maybe change your plans?

Your analogy doesn't work though does it?

While it's in no-one's interest for the UK to leave without a deal no-one wants it to drag on any longer either. So by forcing it off the table it puts the pressure onto the EU to try hard to find something that will enable our Parliament to accept. It also puts pressure on Johnson to try too as unless he does he won't be PM for much longer.

So a better analogy would be that your car salesman faces the sack unless he manages to find a deal on a car that you can accept. So you are both motivated.


 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Sep 19 10.45pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Do you need that explained or are you ok with it?

No. Do you?

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 10 Sep 19 10.51pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

[quote=silvertop;

That and the fact that he is an out and out marxist.

You say that as if it’s a bad thing.

 

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View DANGERCLOSE's Profile DANGERCLOSE Flag london 10 Sep 19 11.01pm Send a Private Message to DANGERCLOSE Add DANGERCLOSE as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

This stinks of conspiracy theory, produced in a back bedroom by someone with an axe to grind.

I suspect Lord James was warned merely because he was making a fool of himself.

I scanned the piece referenced. Do you seriously expect people to believe that the "UK Column" is serious journalism?

I searched the Royal United Services institute for details of this alleged conference and could find no mention of it.

It's true that there are changes going on with the command structure of British Forces in response to the changing world with the JFC becoming the "Strategic Command" but there is no EU involvement either now or envisaged.

We would never agree to such an idea, and as the decision is ours alone to make, the suggestions are a total nonsense.

Can you seriously imagine our Parliament accepting such proposals? We are a sovereign state within Europe and make these decisions ourselves. Greater co-operation, sharing of resources and supply chains, training and acting together are all probable, but always under our ultimate control.


 

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deleted user Flag 10 Sep 19 11.21pm

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 30% (-1)
LAB: 29% (+2)
LDEM: 17% (-3)
BREX: 13% (-)
GRN: 4% (+1)

via @ComRes, 06 - 08 Sep

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Sep 19 12.05am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Come off it.

Labours proposal is utterly ludicrous and beyond parody, even given the absolute rabbit-hole that British politics has plunged head-first into. Do you genuinely believe that they will offer us a Leave option that has even the smallest shred of credibility? Utterly delusional.

If, as I suspect, what is negotiated is a slightly amended version of the "May" deal, then it already has a lot of credibility.


A second referendum with a Remain option threatens to destroy this country. It will undermine the very core of our democratic principles and if you think the divide is bad now, then it will become FAR worse if this happens, to the point of potentially no return.

Of course it doesn't. It just reflects the reality of a deeply divided country, as it was in 2016. If Parliament has tried, and failed so far, to agree a way to leave in an acceptable way then we just have to go on trying. If that means Parliament checking whether people still want to leave, alongside how they could leave then that's their decision. I would prefer they did it themselves though, rather than throw the decision into the winds of chance and political strategists.

Leave does not go away. It merely becomes more entrenched along with a credible new narrative that there is no point in putting any more faith in our democratic processes to achieve our departure from the EU.

You sound like Farage! Of course there will always be people who don't want us to belong to the EU, just as though there are those who will want us to rejoin if we do leave. That's how it is here now. What the leavers don't seem able to accept is that no decision is ever cast in stone and if events mean circumstances have changed then those changes cannot be ignored. Not finding an acceptable deal is such an event and Parliament reacting to it is evidence of our democratic system at it's finest.

One of the myriad of reasons for voting Leave in the first place was how other referendums in Ireland, France and Holland had been simply brushed aside and now our one? If you consider the likes of Farage and Cummings as chancers, then you are in for a real treat when it comes to what follows because why should anybody who voted Leave in 2016 believe anything they are told by our political class?

Individual politicians can spin the truth to suit their case and the increasing use of marketing techniques and social media to spread dubious targeted messages to particular groups, and not making public pronouncements to everyone is a very dangerous development. We are truly in an era of "fake news". As I don't believe in referendums as a means to decide anything I am pleased when their results are just used by Parliaments as tests of public opinion. I would hate to see us adopt any form of direct democracy as it would lead us down a path to disaster.


Let's assume we have this second referendum as proposed by Labour. Now I will not be voting and whilst I cannot speak for many of my fellow Leavers, I suspect that a huge boycott will take place.

Whilst that would be your choice it would not be a very wise one, in my view. Although against holding it I voted in the 2016 one.


But the vote goes ahead and Remain wins, probably by some margin but on a much reduced turn-out. And less assume that turn out is below a figure like 52%? Just for argument's sake. How much credibility does it have? And why should we not demand another referendum? Or are we meant to just swallow this new one whilst ignoring the fact that the likes of you failed to understand how it is meant to work the first time around?

How it was meant to work? It didn't work did it? That you think that you understand how "it was meant to work" doesn't mean you do. There are other opinions. It produced a tiny majority from a country split down the middle. That one side thought they had "won" says everything about how flawed the whole thing was in the first place. It was only given any kind of legitimacy by Parliament who have since failed to find a way forward that they can accept. So now they really have no other choice other than to withdraw that legitimacy.


Now I loathe the Liberal Democrats as much as the next reasonable human being but their new stance of just revoking A50 has an honesty to it. The referendum from 2016 was advisory only and they mainly objected to it being held in the first place. Of course if they get their way Leave does not go away and the battle continues but democracy is not damaged as much. Because a case can still be made in the future for people to vote.

I am a reasonable person and I don't loath the Liberal Democrats at all. We have many LD local politicians down here and the party has been traditionally strong in the south west. It may well capture seats here again. As I won't vote for a Johnson led Tory Party which is adopting the Brexit party strategy, nor for Labour under Corbyn the LDs are likely to get my vote. If the Tories get a deal before Oct 31st, dump the ERG and the DUP, and go back towards the centre I might change my mind.


But another referendum with Remain as an option? No. That rips us apart even more.

Let's see shall we? It amuses me though to read this kind of comment because if you are so confident that you are sure that the people still want to leave what are you scared of? They would only be asked to confirm that their opinion remains unchanged by the past 3 years of turmoil.


And it is merely window dressing to assuage the guilt of many on the left who want to maintain their self-image as reasonable people who believe in democracy. But you don't get to maintain that illusion. You lost in 2016. The case for Remain is done and dusted. Over. There is possibly a coherent argument to be made for a second referendum on how we leave but that is still open for a huge debate but I am willing to concede that a case could be made. But Remain? It offers nothing. There is no return to the status quo. Britain goes back into the EU not only humiliated and open to all sorts of perfectly justifiable criticism from the other 27 states for pissing them about but Leave takes on an entirely new meaning. It becomes about so much more than just the EU. An absolute Pandora's box of unforeseen and potentially horrendous consequences.

Completely wrong. We would remain a member strengthened by overcoming an enormous internal battle to get us out. Our negotiating position on achieving the changes to some of the more distasteful elements gets stronger because the EU would want to reward us for our efforts and not risk us going through it all again. I think we could achieve a special understanding on what "free movement" entails for countries like ours. Leave and they would punish us as an example to others.

If you want us Leavers f***ed over then have the balls to spit in our faces, like the Lib Dems want to do, rather than stab us in the back because whilst we will react BADLY to both, at least we would not have been made to suffer the indignity of you w***ers trying to maintain your stand on the moral high ground. Remain is a swamp dwellers position now. The antithesis of any semblance of democratic belief. Own that. Wear that hat.

That kind of vitriol doesn't deserve a reasoned response.


Democracy needs people to accept that if you lose, you lose. You want that destroyed.

British democracy needs people like you to accept that it is in Parliament that sovereignty resides. Not in any referendum. Especially one that was so close. No-one "won" the referendum. It wasn't a game of football or a war. It was a snapshot of how people felt on a particular day having been subjected to particular sets of information. As we can see 3 years later, we all lost as a consequence.

I don't want any future referendums at all but if we must hold them on matters which affect the constitutional position then I would like to see them not being considered mandatory unless a 2/3 majority is achieved. Anything less than that should be taken by Parliament as an indication of current public opinion only.

Edited by Matov (10 Sep 2019 8.17pm)

 

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Online Flag Hong Kong 11 Sep 19 2.30am Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

Loser consent has gone therefore waste of time having more voting.

Simples is that MP's refusing to carry out the wishes of their electors on the basis that they know best.

406 constituencies voted to leave , 242 to remain.

There are so many Westminster centric heads in the EU trough that leave will be resisted permanently.

 


Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 11 Sep 19 7.57am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by HKOwen

Loser consent has gone therefore waste of time having more voting.

And that is what I so so struggle with in terms of understanding this Remainer mindset. They are willing to smash the knees of the most basic concept of democracy for what? The EU? To have the title 'European Citizen'.

Because as you quite rightly state what is the point in voting for anything meaningful ever again? The referendum on June 23rd was perhaps the most purest expression of democracy that any of us had ever taken part in. A binary question, a pledge it would be honoured and every vote equally weighted. All that matter was that you were entitled to vote and made the effort to do so.

And Parliament then started the process, none of which was ever predecated on having a 'deal'. We should not be in the EU today. We should have left. Instead we have not and the w***ers in Parliament want to kick it down the road again before screwing us all over.

Somebody claimed that part of my previous post was vitriolic. And they were right. It absolutely was. And perfectly justified along with room for a whole host more.

A second referendum will toxify this country even more than it is already. It will discourage millions and millions of people from ever voting again for anything. And people will turn to alternative voices. Ones that don't abuse them for having the audacity to turn out and vote and then expect Parliament to act upon their wishes.

I now expect the Remainers to get their way. Johnson appears to be buckling and it is clear that all Parliamentary norms are out of the window. Parliament has no intention of every truly submitting itself again to the voting public and no doubt will congratulate itself massively for doing so. But there will be a backlash and that will change this country for ever in ways that leaving the EU, as we should have done by now, could not even come close to matching.

And to all the Remainers out there rubbing there hands in utter glee at getting their own way, despite losing on June 23rd, be very very careful in terms of what you wish for.

Because one day, and I pray I live to see it, you will trot off down to the polling station, cast your vote in good faith and then find it ignored. And you will have nobody to blame for that but yourselves.


 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 11 Sep 19 8.50am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

I agree with you Matov and you put it far more eloquently than I could

 

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View DANGERCLOSE's Profile DANGERCLOSE Flag london 11 Sep 19 9.21am Send a Private Message to DANGERCLOSE Add DANGERCLOSE as a friend

 

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View DANGERCLOSE's Profile DANGERCLOSE Flag london 11 Sep 19 9.25am Send a Private Message to DANGERCLOSE Add DANGERCLOSE as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

And that is what I so so struggle with in terms of understanding this Remainer mindset. They are willing to smash the knees of the most basic concept of democracy for what? The EU? To have the title 'European Citizen'.

Because as you quite rightly state what is the point in voting for anything meaningful ever again? The referendum on June 23rd was perhaps the most purest expression of democracy that any of us had ever taken part in. A binary question, a pledge it would be honoured and every vote equally weighted. All that matter was that you were entitled to vote and made the effort to do so.

And Parliament then started the process, none of which was ever predecated on having a 'deal'. We should not be in the EU today. We should have left. Instead we have not and the w***ers in Parliament want to kick it down the road again before screwing us all over.

Somebody claimed that part of my previous post was vitriolic. And they were right. It absolutely was. And perfectly justified along with room for a whole host more.

A second referendum will toxify this country even more than it is already. It will discourage millions and millions of people from ever voting again for anything. And people will turn to alternative voices. Ones that don't abuse them for having the audacity to turn out and vote and then expect Parliament to act upon their wishes.

I now expect the Remainers to get their way. Johnson appears to be buckling and it is clear that all Parliamentary norms are out of the window. Parliament has no intention of every truly submitting itself again to the voting public and no doubt will congratulate itself massively for doing so. But there will be a backlash and that will change this country for ever in ways that leaving the EU, as we should have done by now, could not even come close to matching.

And to all the Remainers out there rubbing there hands in utter glee at getting their own way, despite losing on June 23rd, be very very careful in terms of what you wish for.

Because one day, and I pray I live to see it, you will trot off down to the polling station, cast your vote in good faith and then find it ignored. And you will have nobody to blame for that but yourselves.


Agreed and well put.

 

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