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Grenfell - who's to blame

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cryrst The garden of England 05 Nov 19 2.25pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I want to know if it turns out that someone had about 15 plugs from one socket and the fire was caused by a short - will it still be everyone else's fault? Particularly if it was then delayed in being reported? Lack of any type of personal responsibility rife these days. No doubt though, even if something like that caused the fire - we won't be told. Obviously the cladding spread the fire but it had to start somewhere. Just a thought. Careful there mate. You will get called all sorts for being sensible. I feel your frustration though tbh. And yes personal blame is not allowed due to the fact that..... No I wont sorry.
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cryrst

The garden of England 05 Nov 19 2.25pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I want to know if it turns out that someone had about 15 plugs from one socket and the fire was caused by a short - will it still be everyone else's fault? Particularly if it was then delayed in being reported?
Lack of any type of personal responsibility rife these days. No doubt though, even if something like that caused the fire - we won't be told.
Obviously the cladding spread the fire but it had to start somewhere. Just a thought.

Careful there mate.
You will get called all sorts for being sensible.
I feel your frustration though tbh.
And yes personal blame is not allowed due to the fact that.....
No I wont sorry.

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W12 05 Nov 19 2.55pm
We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were. Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on. That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men.
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W12 05 Nov 19 2.55pm

We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were.

Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on.

That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men.

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DanH SW2 05 Nov 19 2.59pm
Originally posted by W12 We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were. Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on. That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men. So you shouldn't try to get to the bottom of why things happen?
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DanH

SW2 05 Nov 19 2.59pm

Originally posted by W12

We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were.

Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on.

That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men.

So you shouldn't try to get to the bottom of why things happen?

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sickboy Deal or Croydon 05 Nov 19 3.01pm
Originally posted by W12 We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were. Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on. That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men. No such thing as accidents anymore. They are now incidents, as accident implies nobody is to blame, when in reality someone is always responsible. Yup, bollox i know.
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sickboy

Deal or Croydon 05 Nov 19 3.01pm

Originally posted by W12

We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were.

Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on.

That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men.

No such thing as accidents anymore.
They are now incidents, as accident implies nobody is to blame, when in reality someone is always responsible. Yup, bollox i know.

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Stirlingsays 05 Nov 19 3.27pm
Anyone who works in the public sector is always on a hiding to nothing. What I detest is that proportion of the middle and higher classes who would never let their kids work in these jobs yet are full of contempt for these services.....I'm thinking especially of those in the media and political classes. While I have huge problems with how politicised our Police is now....largely that's a politicised management problem and if you work in the public sector you are a force for good in society....response teams are obviously very important people. But when things go wrong we know that there are plenty of awful people who will hang you out to dry as fast as they can. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Nov 2019 3.50pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

05 Nov 19 3.27pm

Anyone who works in the public sector is always on a hiding to nothing.

What I detest is that proportion of the middle and higher classes who would never let their kids work in these jobs yet are full of contempt for these services.....I'm thinking especially of those in the media and political classes.

While I have huge problems with how politicised our Police is now....largely that's a politicised management problem and if you work in the public sector you are a force for good in society....response teams are obviously very important people.

But when things go wrong we know that there are plenty of awful people who will hang you out to dry as fast as they can.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Nov 2019 3.50pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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W12 05 Nov 19 3.39pm
Originally posted by DanH So you shouldn't try to get to the bottom of why things happen? I didn't say you shouldn't work out how to avoid this happening in the future. That is almost the exact opposite of just finding someone to blame.
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W12 05 Nov 19 3.39pm

Originally posted by DanH

So you shouldn't try to get to the bottom of why things happen?

I didn't say you shouldn't work out how to avoid this happening in the future. That is almost the exact opposite of just finding someone to blame.

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ex hibitionist Hastings 05 Nov 19 9.11pm
Originally posted by W12 We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were. Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on. That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men. it was a tragic accident that happened because of the cladding, you are bringing race into it, isn't the issue the rich crapping on the poor ... 'evil white men?!' � what has the racial (and sexual) demographic of the culprits or victims got to do with this? there is a clear undertone to your comment which betrays some fantasy idea that the complaint is based in the inability of a coloured underclass who can't afford a better place to live - maybe they should be grateful they had any cladding at all, maybe if there's a similar fire that kills a load of plumbers from Essex you'll be able to see more clearly.
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ex hibitionist

Hastings 05 Nov 19 9.11pm

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Originally posted by W12

We used to call these things tragic accidents because that's what they were.

Now it's just an exercise in apportioning blame depending on whose side you are on.

That cultural shift is what happens when you consistently tell people that they part of a victim hierarchy perpetuated by evil white men.

it was a tragic accident that happened because of the cladding, you are bringing race into it, isn't the issue the rich crapping on the poor ... 'evil white men?!' � what has the racial (and sexual) demographic of the culprits or victims got to do with this? there is a clear undertone to your comment which betrays some fantasy idea that the complaint is based in the inability of a coloured underclass who can't afford a better place to live - maybe they should be grateful they had any cladding at all, maybe if there's a similar fire that kills a load of plumbers from Essex you'll be able to see more clearly.

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Mapletree Croydon 05 Nov 19 9.30pm
Simple answer is Eric Pickles and our very own Gavin Barwell. The Lakanal House coroner's report was largely ignored. The fire spread in a way it should not have done. [Link]
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Mapletree

Croydon 05 Nov 19 9.30pm

Simple answer is Eric Pickles and our very own Gavin Barwell.

The Lakanal House coroner's report was largely ignored.

The fire spread in a way it should not have done.

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 05 Nov 19 9.43pm
Originally posted by ex hibitionist it was a tragic accident that happened because of the cladding, you are bringing race into it, isn't the issue the rich crapping on the poor ... 'evil white men?!' � what has the racial (and sexual) demographic of the culprits or victims got to do with this? there is a clear undertone to your comment which betrays some fantasy idea that the complaint is based in the inability of a coloured underclass who can't afford a better place to live - maybe they should be grateful they had any cladding at all, maybe if there's a similar fire that kills a load of plumbers from Essex you'll be able to see more clearly. From what I've seen most of the commentary about race with this tragedy has been from leftist commentators. Who on the left complained about that connection and only focused upon the regulations and cladding? Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Nov 2019 9.45pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

05 Nov 19 9.43pm

Originally posted by ex hibitionist

From what I've seen most of the commentary about race with this tragedy has been from leftist commentators.

Who on the left complained about that connection and only focused upon the regulations and cladding?

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Nov 2019 9.45pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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cryrst The garden of England 05 Nov 19 10.30pm
Originally posted by ex hibitionist it was a tragic accident that happened because of the cladding, you are bringing race into it, isn't the issue the rich crapping on the poor ... 'evil white men?!' � what has the racial (and sexual) demographic of the culprits or victims got to do with this? there is a clear undertone to your comment which betrays some fantasy idea that the complaint is based in the inability of a coloured underclass who can't afford a better place to live - maybe they should be grateful they had any cladding at all, maybe if there's a similar fire that kills a load of plumbers from Essex you'll be able to see more clearly. Grenfell was multi coloured. Afford a better place to live! Reports I've read say how much they loved living there, not forgetting a lot dont want to leave the area. The cladding passed the relevant standards required at the time. It takes disasters for changes. That's a sad fact. Look at history and most changes for our safety are because of this fact. Unfortunatly grenfell was a very freak and extremely rare event. A perfect storm involving all the factors.
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cryrst

The garden of England 05 Nov 19 10.30pm

Originally posted by ex hibitionist

Grenfell was multi coloured.
Afford a better place to live!
Reports I've read say how much they loved living there, not forgetting a lot dont want to leave the area.
The cladding passed the relevant standards required at the time.
It takes disasters for changes.
That's a sad fact.
Look at history and most changes for our safety are because of this fact.
Unfortunatly grenfell was a very freak and extremely rare event.
A perfect storm involving all the factors.

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Mapletree Croydon 05 Nov 19 10.51pm
Originally posted by cryrst Grenfell was multi coloured. Afford a better place to live! Reports I've read say how much they loved living there, not forgetting a lot dont want to leave the area. The cladding passed the relevant standards required at the time. It takes disasters for changes. That's a sad fact. Look at history and most changes for our safety are because of this fact. Unfortunatly grenfell was a very freak and extremely rare event. A perfect storm involving all the factors. But not unexpected or unpredictable. See my earlier post. A Coroner had already warned us that this could happen. It wasn�t just about cladding, there were many factors.
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Mapletree

Croydon 05 Nov 19 10.51pm

Originally posted by cryrst

But not unexpected or unpredictable. See my earlier post. A Coroner had already warned us that this could happen. It wasn�t just about cladding, there were many factors.

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deleted user 06 Nov 19 1.59am
Originally posted by cryrst Grenfell was multi coloured. Afford a better place to live! Reports I've read say how much they loved living there, not forgetting a lot dont want to leave the area. The cladding passed the relevant standards required at the time. It takes disasters for changes. That's a sad fact. Look at history and most changes for our safety are because of this fact. Unfortunatly grenfell was a very freak and extremely rare event. A perfect storm involving all the factors. In retrospect it's clear that the cladding was entirely inadequate (along with regulations) and essentially turned a block of flats into a potential tomb. I agree though, that until something terrible happens it's all theoretical and 'nothing to see'.
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deleted user

06 Nov 19 1.59am

Originally posted by cryrst

In retrospect it's clear that the cladding was entirely inadequate (along with regulations) and essentially turned a block of flats into a potential tomb. I agree though, that until something terrible happens it's all theoretical and 'nothing to see'.

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