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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 12.52pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays It's an horrendous topic for me to think about....but it's an important one. A baby has a heartbeat at around six weeks.....I find it hard to justify after that. There are plenty of considerations....rape, deformity, unwanted pregnancies and unsuitable parents....so on and so forth. I accept that in certain situations it's complicated. However, when I hear the topic slanted so one way I feel I need to speak up for the life of the unborn child....who is frequently ignored like it's some purely 'feminist' issue. The unborn child isn't biological waste and our system and laws often seem to treat them like that....We were all that unborn child once. I definitely don't see this issue the same way after we had our boys.....I never really had to think about it before but once I saw that scan, the world changed. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 12.33pm) That's fair enough. I personally would increase abortion rights to the age of 40, just in case, they turn out really bad. Always good to have a fail safe From a 'preservation of life' pov, there is definitely an argument to be made, however, I don't think any 'sane' woman, gets to 30 weeks and thinks 'actually, no I don't want it'. If anything, the overwhelming amount of abortions are done before 14 weeks and 20 weeks and most of the ones done after are related to viability, than a flippant choice. The US just politisizes everything though and it's not driven by people like yourself, that have kids and have an emotional vested interest, it's done by, let's call them, passionately religious people. The way science is going, it will get to a point where a sperm cell is life, which I actually do believe it is, so the question is really around how strict you are in your definition of life. What I would ask you is if your wife/partner, got to 13 weeks and said she didn't want the baby, for economic reasons, how far would you go to stop her? and if she got the abortion, would you want her jailed?
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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 12.52pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

It's an horrendous topic for me to think about....but it's an important one.

A baby has a heartbeat at around six weeks.....I find it hard to justify after that.

There are plenty of considerations....rape, deformity, unwanted pregnancies and unsuitable parents....so on and so forth. I accept that in certain situations it's complicated.

However, when I hear the topic slanted so one way I feel I need to speak up for the life of the unborn child....who is frequently ignored like it's some purely 'feminist' issue. The unborn child isn't biological waste and our system and laws often seem to treat them like that....We were all that unborn child once.

I definitely don't see this issue the same way after we had our boys.....I never really had to think about it before but once I saw that scan, the world changed.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 12.33pm)

That's fair enough. I personally would increase abortion rights to the age of 40, just in case, they turn out really bad. Always good to have a fail safe

From a 'preservation of life' pov, there is definitely an argument to be made, however, I don't think any 'sane' woman, gets to 30 weeks and thinks 'actually, no I don't want it'.
If anything, the overwhelming amount of abortions are done before 14 weeks and 20 weeks and most of the ones done after are related to viability, than a flippant choice.

The US just politisizes everything though and it's not driven by people like yourself, that have kids and have an emotional vested interest, it's done by, let's call them, passionately religious people.

The way science is going, it will get to a point where a sperm cell is life, which I actually do believe it is, so the question is really around how strict you are in your definition of life.

What I would ask you is if your wife/partner, got to 13 weeks and said she didn't want the baby, for economic reasons, how far would you go to stop her? and if she got the abortion, would you want her jailed?

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Stirlingsays 25 Nov 19 1.28pm
Originally posted by Jway89 What I would ask you is if your wife/partner, got to 13 weeks and said she didn't want the baby, for economic reasons, how far would you go to stop her? and if she got the abortion, would you want her jailed? No, but that would be it....and I would have lost a viable child and she would have been responsible for it.....horrendous. Thankfully I'm in a situation where there is a consensus on this. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.39pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

25 Nov 19 1.28pm

Originally posted by Jway89

No, but that would be it....and I would have lost a viable child and she would have been responsible for it.....horrendous.

Thankfully I'm in a situation where there is a consensus on this.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.39pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 25 Nov 19 1.36pm
Originally posted by Jway89 The US just politisizes everything though and it's not driven by people like yourself, that have kids and have an emotional vested interest, it's done by, let's call them, passionately religious people. The way science is going, it will get to a point where a sperm cell is life, which I actually do believe it is, so the question is really around how strict you are in your definition of life. You've made fair points in my view. I agree that there is a religious movement behind stopping it completely but while I see the argument, even though that's impractical....I don't come at this from a religious angle....more a human rights one....though more my take on human rights...as you will see in my last line. It is as I think you imply all about when is life...life. A sperm cell is a form of life, in the same sense that every cell in our body is....and collectively they contribute to our living one....perhaps even conscious self. For me, as soon as there is any brain development or a heartbeat....I don't think it can be argued so easily that no protection can be justified. But I concede that it's a difficult topic with difficult consequences and that my view may be a minority one. It may be controversial but I'm more for sterilization than I'm for our current abortion laws. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.40pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

25 Nov 19 1.36pm

Originally posted by Jway89

The way science is going, it will get to a point where a sperm cell is life, which I actually do believe it is, so the question is really around how strict you are in your definition of life.

You've made fair points in my view. I agree that there is a religious movement behind stopping it completely but while I see the argument, even though that's impractical....I don't come at this from a religious angle....more a human rights one....though more my take on human rights...as you will see in my last line.

It is as I think you imply all about when is life...life.

A sperm cell is a form of life, in the same sense that every cell in our body is....and collectively they contribute to our living one....perhaps even conscious self.

For me, as soon as there is any brain development or a heartbeat....I don't think it can be argued so easily that no protection can be justified.

But I concede that it's a difficult topic with difficult consequences and that my view may be a minority one.

It may be controversial but I'm more for sterilization than I'm for our current abortion laws.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.40pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 1.43pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays No, but that would be it....and I would have lost a viable child and she would have been responsible for it.....horrendous. Thankfully I'm in a situation where there's a family consensus on this. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.28pm) So, there you go. It's is a matter for the couple in question, imo, not the law. I would imagine if she did abort, as you have stated, that the relationship would be over and you would go your separate ways or it's a decision that you both agree with and move on or she makes the decision, because she's not ready yet and you can try later on, but, just because you have a family consensus, doesn't mean all couples do. I think we can both agree that abortion isn't some easy choice that any woman makes, on the whole, and I don't think any woman takes the decision lightly. This is where I think political parties should not be allowed to enter. This decision isn't complicated through a black and white looking glass, but in reality it is a complicated and daunting situation to be in and it needs to be treated as such. You can't allow yourself as a society to be in a situation where you are jailing mothers for abortions, that to me is pretty insane, no matter what your feelings are on the matter, because, if you, as a country, make abortions illegal, then that has to be taken seriously. So, if I live in the US and it's illegal to have an abortion, will I be jailed as soon as I come back from having it in a country where it is legal? If I stay in that country, could I potentially be extradited to face a charge of murder? Is there an argument to be had about abortions being used as a form of contraception? Of course and it's done with education as well as the obvious forms of contraception.
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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 1.43pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

No, but that would be it....and I would have lost a viable child and she would have been responsible for it.....horrendous.

Thankfully I'm in a situation where there's a family consensus on this.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.28pm)

So, there you go. It's is a matter for the couple in question, imo, not the law. I would imagine if she did abort, as you have stated, that the relationship would be over and you would go your separate ways or it's a decision that you both agree with and move on or she makes the decision, because she's not ready yet and you can try later on, but, just because you have a family consensus, doesn't mean all couples do.

I think we can both agree that abortion isn't some easy choice that any woman makes, on the whole, and I don't think any woman takes the decision lightly.

This is where I think political parties should not be allowed to enter. This decision isn't complicated through a black and white looking glass, but in reality it is a complicated and daunting situation to be in and it needs to be treated as such. You can't allow yourself as a society to be in a situation where you are jailing mothers for abortions, that to me is pretty insane, no matter what your feelings are on the matter, because, if you, as a country, make abortions illegal, then that has to be taken seriously. So, if I live in the US and it's illegal to have an abortion, will I be jailed as soon as I come back from having it in a country where it is legal? If I stay in that country, could I potentially be extradited to face a charge of murder?

Is there an argument to be had about abortions being used as a form of contraception? Of course and it's done with education as well as the obvious forms of contraception.

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Stirlingsays 25 Nov 19 2.03pm
Originally posted by Jway89 So, there you go. It's is a matter for the couple in question, imo, not the law. I would imagine if she did abort, as you have stated, that the relationship would be over and you would go your separate ways or it's a decision that you both agree with and move on or she makes the decision, because she's not ready yet and you can try later on, but, just because you have a family consensus, doesn't mean all couples do. Mmmm....not quite. I didn't say anything about how the law should see the situation. You asked me what I would do within the relationship. The stage at which the state should allow the women to have sole decision making powers on this would be a matter of contention.....I highly doubt I'd go to court in a situation where all the powers are against me. But from my perspective I don't see how a person who valued the life of a viable healthy unborn child at 13 weeks could continue in that relationship after its death by the female's choice.....difficult decision or not. No Stirling is biological waste and it would feck with my head for the rest of my life. Originally posted by Jway89 I think we can both agree that abortion isn't some easy choice that any woman makes, on the whole, and I don't think any woman takes the decision lightly. Mmmm...not really. There are plenty of people who see abortion as 'biological waste' and an entitlement with no attached responsibilities. Originally posted by Jway89 This is where I think political parties should not be allowed to enter. This decision isn't complicated through a black and white looking glass, but in reality it is a complicated and daunting situation to be in and it needs to be treated as such. You can't allow yourself as a society to be in a situation where you are jailing mothers for abortions, that to me is pretty insane, no matter what your feelings are on the matter, because, if you, as a country, make abortions illegal, then that has to be taken seriously. So, if I live in the US and it's illegal to have an abortion, will I be jailed as soon as I come back from having it in a country where it is legal? If I stay in that country, could I potentially be extradited to face a charge of murder? Is there an argument to be had about abortions being used as a form of contraception? Of course and it's done with education as well as the obvious forms of contraception. This is a very complicated issue.....still essentially the ethics of it can be settled holistically. You take the decision to look to preserve healthy viable human life or you allow the possibility that you don't. I take the former. Now what that means in lots of specific situations is a daisy chain of complexity and probable part compromises. The day I'm paid to make those decisions is the day I should ponder them.....As that's not going to happen I'd rather not think about it. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 2.07pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

25 Nov 19 2.03pm

Originally posted by Jway89

So, there you go. It's is a matter for the couple in question, imo, not the law. I would imagine if she did abort, as you have stated, that the relationship would be over and you would go your separate ways or it's a decision that you both agree with and move on or she makes the decision, because she's not ready yet and you can try later on, but, just because you have a family consensus, doesn't mean all couples do.

Mmmm....not quite. I didn't say anything about how the law should see the situation. You asked me what I would do within the relationship.

The stage at which the state should allow the women to have sole decision making powers on this would be a matter of contention.....I highly doubt I'd go to court in a situation where all the powers are against me.

But from my perspective I don't see how a person who valued the life of a viable healthy unborn child at 13 weeks could continue in that relationship after its death by the female's choice.....difficult decision or not.

No Stirling is biological waste and it would feck with my head for the rest of my life.

Originally posted by Jway89

I think we can both agree that abortion isn't some easy choice that any woman makes, on the whole, and I don't think any woman takes the decision lightly.

Mmmm...not really. There are plenty of people who see abortion as 'biological waste' and an entitlement with no attached responsibilities.

Originally posted by Jway89

Is there an argument to be had about abortions being used as a form of contraception? Of course and it's done with education as well as the obvious forms of contraception.

This is a very complicated issue.....still essentially the ethics of it can be settled holistically.

You take the decision to look to preserve healthy viable human life or you allow the possibility that you don't. I take the former.

Now what that means in lots of specific situations is a daisy chain of complexity and probable part compromises.

The day I'm paid to make those decisions is the day I should ponder them.....As that's not going to happen I'd rather not think about it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 2.07pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 2.03pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays It may be controversial but I'm more for sterilization than I'm for our current abortion laws. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.40pm) Tbh, I'm not so sure it's that controversial. We have 7B people on this planet, with finite resources. If we keep adding 1B every 10 years, something is going to have to give. I do think we are going the way of AI, whether it's our consciousness being uploaded onto a network or, my favourite scenario, we all become Terminators, but the reality is that we don't or won't have enough plants, trees, food and water to support us all.
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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 2.03pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

It may be controversial but I'm more for sterilization than I'm for our current abortion laws.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2019 1.40pm)

Tbh, I'm not so sure it's that controversial. We have 7B people on this planet, with finite resources. If we keep adding 1B every 10 years, something is going to have to give.

I do think we are going the way of AI, whether it's our consciousness being uploaded onto a network or, my favourite scenario, we all become Terminators, but the reality is that we don't or won't have enough plants, trees, food and water to support us all.

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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 2.14pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Mmmm...not really. There are plenty of people who see abortion as 'biological waste' and an entitlement with no attached responsibilities. The day I'm paid to make those decisions is the day I should ponder them.....As that's not going to happen I'd rather not think about it. I'll need to see actual proof of this. I can only imagine this is from some kind of poll. It does seem like you have thought about it and, with respect, your conclusion has been made simpler and easier, because you've not had to deal with this type of situation. I understand the thought of having to deal with this isn't worth imagining, but I guarantee you, it would be worse on your wife/partner. So, I would be interested to know at what stage you think a doctor and a woman should be prosecuted and if it should be for murder, manslaughter as well as conspiracy to murder, on behalf of the mother/father, if they both agreed to it. All questions that need to be considered, but maybe for another day.
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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 2.14pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Mmmm...not really. There are plenty of people who see abortion as 'biological waste' and an entitlement with no attached responsibilities.

The day I'm paid to make those decisions is the day I should ponder them.....As that's not going to happen I'd rather not think about it.

I'll need to see actual proof of this. I can only imagine this is from some kind of poll.

It does seem like you have thought about it and, with respect, your conclusion has been made simpler and easier, because you've not had to deal with this type of situation. I understand the thought of having to deal with this isn't worth imagining, but I guarantee you, it would be worse on your wife/partner.

So, I would be interested to know at what stage you think a doctor and a woman should be prosecuted and if it should be for murder, manslaughter as well as conspiracy to murder, on behalf of the mother/father, if they both agreed to it.

All questions that need to be considered, but maybe for another day.

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Stirlingsays 25 Nov 19 2.16pm
Originally posted by Jway89 Tbh, I'm not so sure it's that controversial. We have 7B people on this planet, with finite resources. If we keep adding 1B every 10 years, something is going to have to give. I do think we are going the way of AI, whether it's our consciousness being uploaded onto a network or, my favourite scenario, we all become Terminators, but the reality is that we don't or won't have enough plants, trees, food and water to support us all. Not and have conservation that's for sure. Food technologies could, I think, enable a disfigured population size for a couple of decades....but eventually it's not practical.....Also we are limited in lots of other ways for resources. Even if you take the climate change argument out.....Human population size has to be sustainable at levels where people can lead decent lives. To the logical mind the current trajectory seems a bit mad....how can any of it end well?.....Yet it appears that's the direction we are headed to. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

25 Nov 19 2.16pm

Originally posted by Jway89

Tbh, I'm not so sure it's that controversial. We have 7B people on this planet, with finite resources. If we keep adding 1B every 10 years, something is going to have to give.

I do think we are going the way of AI, whether it's our consciousness being uploaded onto a network or, my favourite scenario, we all become Terminators, but the reality is that we don't or won't have enough plants, trees, food and water to support us all.

Not and have conservation that's for sure.

Food technologies could, I think, enable a disfigured population size for a couple of decades....but eventually it's not practical.....Also we are limited in lots of other ways for resources.

Even if you take the climate change argument out.....Human population size has to be sustainable at levels where people can lead decent lives.

To the logical mind the current trajectory seems a bit mad....how can any of it end well?.....Yet it appears that's the direction we are headed to.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 25 Nov 19 2.21pm
Originally posted by Jway89 I'll need to see actual proof of this. I can only imagine this is from some kind of poll. There are some rather horrible examples....are you sure you want me to look? I'd rather not personally. Believe me, most people would fit your description but not all. Originally posted by Jway89 It does seem like you have thought about it and, with respect, your conclusion has been made simpler and easier, because you've not had to deal with this type of situation. I understand the thought of having to deal with this isn't worth imagining, but I guarantee you, it would be worse on your wife/partner. So, I would be interested to know at what stage you think a doctor and a woman should be prosecuted and if it should be for murder, manslaughter as well as conspiracy to murder, on behalf of the mother/father, if they both agreed to it. All questions that need to be considered, but maybe for another day. Thank you. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

25 Nov 19 2.21pm

Originally posted by Jway89

I'll need to see actual proof of this. I can only imagine this is from some kind of poll.

There are some rather horrible examples....are you sure you want me to look? I'd rather not personally. Believe me, most people would fit your description but not all.

Originally posted by Jway89

All questions that need to be considered, but maybe for another day.

Thank you.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 2.29pm
most people would fit your description but not all. I'll settle for that. There's always a fringe.
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Deleted11 25 Nov 19 2.29pm

most people would fit your description but not all.

I'll settle for that. There's always a fringe.

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Stirlingsays 25 Nov 19 10.48pm
The DOW, NASDAQ, S&P and 500 close at record highs again. You have to hand it to Trump, he was right about taxes and the economy and his critics weren't.....and he had a huge number of 'expert' critics on his tax plans and trade rearrangements....Lots predicting disaster and all shown to have been wrong. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

25 Nov 19 10.48pm

The DOW, NASDAQ, S&P and 500 close at record highs again.

You have to hand it to Trump, he was right about taxes and the economy and his critics weren't.....and he had a huge number of 'expert' critics on his tax plans and trade rearrangements....Lots predicting disaster and all shown to have been wrong.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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deleted user 25 Nov 19 11.13pm
Originally posted by Jway89 If anything, the overwhelming amount of abortions are done before 14 weeks and 20 weeks and most of the ones done after are related to viability, than a flippant choice. I think it's important that abortion is legal, but at the same time the divisive and polarised nature of US politics pushes extremes. On one side of the political coin you're seen as evil incarnate if you take a morning after pill and on other you're not far off getting high fived post abortion. A concern would be that the more abortion is viewed as the easy option, the less precautions are taken regarding unwanted pregnancy to begin with. When really that should be the stage where making sensible choices should come to the fore. Logically it's something that should be viewed with a degree of seriousness.
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deleted user

25 Nov 19 11.13pm

Originally posted by Jway89

If anything, the overwhelming amount of abortions are done before 14 weeks and 20 weeks and most of the ones done after are related to viability, than a flippant choice.

I think it's important that abortion is legal, but at the same time the divisive and polarised nature of US politics pushes extremes. On one side of the political coin you're seen as evil incarnate if you take a morning after pill and on other you're not far off getting high fived post abortion.

A concern would be that the more abortion is viewed as the easy option, the less precautions are taken regarding unwanted pregnancy to begin with. When really that should be the stage where making sensible choices should come to the fore. Logically it's something that should be viewed with a degree of seriousness.

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