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Matov 29 Apr 21 9.35pm
Originally posted by Tom-the-eagle Why does the UK require any overseas workers except those that are highly skilled? We have enough people who can work in Costa or drive delivery vans. All open borders have done is drive up rents and house prices and freeze wages. How about this as a novel approach, start training up our own people? Offer more apprenticeships, make work far more financially rewarding than benefits. Australia is booming and they only take in who they want. Britain was doing just fine before 2004, now people think we can’t survive without an endless supply of cheap labour. Rubbish. Edited by Tom-the-eagle (29 Apr 2021 9.05pm) I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiments but the reality is that the UK has, even now, relatively low levels of unemployment. Covid is definitely a game changer but I suspect that within 24 months we will be back to normal and the economy booming. Meaning more people needed to work. It's a good problem for us to have. Freedom of movement did solve that and based on the treasury figures, then the average migrant from the EU was a net benefit to the UK as opposed to those from outside who are a net-drain. Along with the EU migrants being far less likely to be involved in serious crime. I appreciate that it's not a popular stance to take, especially for a right-wing lunatic like me, but if the UK needs migrants, which I believe it does, then better to get them from Poland than pakistan for a slew of reasons. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

29 Apr 21 9.35pm

Originally posted by Tom-the-eagle

Why does the UK require any overseas workers except those that are highly skilled?
We have enough people who can work in Costa or drive delivery vans. All open borders have done is drive up rents and house prices and freeze wages.
How about this as a novel approach, start training up our own people? Offer more apprenticeships, make work far more financially rewarding than benefits.
Australia is booming and they only take in who they want. Britain was doing just fine before 2004, now people think we can’t survive without an endless supply of cheap labour. Rubbish.

Edited by Tom-the-eagle (29 Apr 2021 9.05pm)

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiments but the reality is that the UK has, even now, relatively low levels of unemployment. Covid is definitely a game changer but I suspect that within 24 months we will be back to normal and the economy booming. Meaning more people needed to work.

It's a good problem for us to have. Freedom of movement did solve that and based on the treasury figures, then the average migrant from the EU was a net benefit to the UK as opposed to those from outside who are a net-drain. Along with the EU migrants being far less likely to be involved in serious crime.

I appreciate that it's not a popular stance to take, especially for a right-wing lunatic like me, but if the UK needs migrants, which I believe it does, then better to get them from Poland than pakistan for a slew of reasons.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Tom-the-eagle Croydon 29 Apr 21 9.43pm
Originally posted by Matov I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiments but the reality is that the UK has, even now, relatively low levels of unemployment. Covid is definitely a game changer but I suspect that within 24 months we will be back to normal and the economy booming. Meaning more people needed to work. It's a good problem for us to have. Freedom of movement did solve that and based on the treasury figures, then the average migrant from the EU was a net benefit to the UK as opposed to those from outside who are a net-drain. Along with the EU migrants being far less likely to be involved in serious crime. I appreciate that it's not a popular stance to take, especially for a right-wing lunatic like me, but if the UK needs migrants, which I believe it does, then better to get them from Poland than pakistan for a slew of reasons. I agree that open door immigration probably was good for the economy, however it’s building an economy by adding people. If a country had 1 person it would have a tiny economy, if a country had 10 people it would have a bigger economy and if a country had 100 people it would be bigger still. Just because something is good for the economy does not necessarily make it good for society. "It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit
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Tom-the-eagle

Croydon 29 Apr 21 9.43pm

Originally posted by Matov

I agree that open door immigration probably was good for the economy, however it’s building an economy by adding people.

If a country had 1 person it would have a tiny economy, if a country had 10 people it would have a bigger economy and if a country had 100 people it would be bigger still.

Just because something is good for the economy does not necessarily make it good for society.

"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit

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Badger11 Beckenham 29 Apr 21 10.15pm
Originally posted by Tom-the-eagle By the way, I think that the UK will be in the sh@te when it comes to the job market. Nothing to do with Brexit, but the effect Covid has had on how we work. I have friends who work at Canary Wharf who have not been to their office now for over a year. If big companies now realise that staff can be employed anywhere then they will soon stop paying high London wages and office rents. Expect to see many of these jobs outsourced, in the same way things like call centres were only these will be the big earners. Won’t just be us, will be a general levelling up around the world. Trust me, In the next ten years, London, the driving force of our economy, may be a different place. This is my take I think we have still not seen the fall out from COVID. As you say if Harry can do the job from home in Surrey why can't Hamed do it from Asia at half the cost. Anyway we are speculating but for now I would keep the brakes on unskilled migration we can always change our minds once it becomes clear what the fall out will be. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 29 Apr 21 10.15pm

Originally posted by Tom-the-eagle

By the way, I think that the UK will be in the sh@te when it comes to the job market.

Nothing to do with Brexit, but the effect Covid has had on how we work.

I have friends who work at Canary Wharf who have not been to their office now for over a year. If big companies now realise that staff can be employed anywhere then they will soon stop paying high London wages and office rents. Expect to see many of these jobs outsourced, in the same way things like call centres were only these will be the big earners.
Won’t just be us, will be a general levelling up around the world.

Trust me, In the next ten years, London, the driving force of our economy, may be a different place.

This is my take I think we have still not seen the fall out from COVID. As you say if Harry can do the job from home in Surrey why can't Hamed do it from Asia at half the cost.

Anyway we are speculating but for now I would keep the brakes on unskilled migration we can always change our minds once it becomes clear what the fall out will be.

One more point

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DanH SW2 29 Apr 21 10.26pm
Originally posted by Badger11 This is my take I think we have still not seen the fall out from COVID. As you say if Harry can do the job from home in Surrey why can't Hamed do it from Asia at half the cost. Anyway we are speculating but for now I would keep the brakes on unskilled migration we can always change our minds once it becomes clear what the fall out will be. There’s a myriad of compliance reasons why loads of jobs can’t be easily outsourced like that - multiple legal, tax, data privacy and corporate governance headaches that don’t really make it worthwhile. It’s closely related to my area of expertise and we’re working with loads of employers who have compliance headaches from employees working or wanting to work outside the U.K.
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DanH

SW2 29 Apr 21 10.26pm

Originally posted by Badger11

This is my take I think we have still not seen the fall out from COVID. As you say if Harry can do the job from home in Surrey why can't Hamed do it from Asia at half the cost.

Anyway we are speculating but for now I would keep the brakes on unskilled migration we can always change our minds once it becomes clear what the fall out will be.

There’s a myriad of compliance reasons why loads of jobs can’t be easily outsourced like that - multiple legal, tax, data privacy and corporate governance headaches that don’t really make it worthwhile.

It’s closely related to my area of expertise and we’re working with loads of employers who have compliance headaches from employees working or wanting to work outside the U.K.

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dannyboy1978 30 Apr 21 5.42am
Originally posted by Matov I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiments but the reality is that the UK has, even now, relatively low levels of unemployment. Covid is definitely a game changer but I suspect that within 24 months we will be back to normal and the economy booming. Meaning more people needed to work. It's a good problem for us to have. Freedom of movement did solve that and based on the treasury figures, then the average migrant from the EU was a net benefit to the UK as opposed to those from outside who are a net-drain. Along with the EU migrants being far less likely to be involved in serious crime. I appreciate that it's not a popular stance to take, especially for a right-wing lunatic like me, but if the UK needs migrants, which I believe it does, then better to get them from Poland than pakistan for a slew of reasons. Ide rather have none from anywhere, keep the population down would make for a more pleasant Britain. Trains are again crowded, London is clogged up again Buildings are going up everywhere Smaller population would suit me.
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dannyboy1978

30 Apr 21 5.42am

Originally posted by Matov

Ide rather have none from anywhere, keep the population down would make for a more pleasant Britain.
Trains are again crowded,
London is clogged up again
Buildings are going up everywhere

Smaller population would suit me.

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Matov 30 Apr 21 7.16am
Originally posted by dannyboy1978 Ide rather have none from anywhere, keep the population down would make for a more pleasant Britain. Trains are again crowded, London is clogged up again Buildings are going up everywhere Smaller population would suit me. I genuinely get and respect that position, and as somebody whose primary ambition is to shrink my own world to two specific locations, with everything and everyone I ever want to spend time with to be within less than a kilometre from my front door meaning I can walk everywhere I need to be, I am probably the epitome of a screaming hypocrite. Would happily withdraw to a world in which I live in tiny communities and where people pass on their property by way of legacy rather than seeing bricks and mortar as an easy way to riches. But on a macro level, sadly, the world does not work like that. We are caught in a growth trap that means the tax base needs to increase and given our demographics, we need more people to come to the UK. The only rational conclusion I can make. Therefore where those people come from has to be the consideration. Hence why I am in favour of a version of the FOM we had in place when we were in the EU. Not that exact model but a version of it. Pole or pakistani. The choice we need to make. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

30 Apr 21 7.16am

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

Ide rather have none from anywhere, keep the population down would make for a more pleasant Britain.
Trains are again crowded,
London is clogged up again
Buildings are going up everywhere

Smaller population would suit me.

I genuinely get and respect that position, and as somebody whose primary ambition is to shrink my own world to two specific locations, with everything and everyone I ever want to spend time with to be within less than a kilometre from my front door meaning I can walk everywhere I need to be, I am probably the epitome of a screaming hypocrite. Would happily withdraw to a world in which I live in tiny communities and where people pass on their property by way of legacy rather than seeing bricks and mortar as an easy way to riches.

But on a macro level, sadly, the world does not work like that. We are caught in a growth trap that means the tax base needs to increase and given our demographics, we need more people to come to the UK. The only rational conclusion I can make. Therefore where those people come from has to be the consideration. Hence why I am in favour of a version of the FOM we had in place when we were in the EU. Not that exact model but a version of it. Pole or pakistani. The choice we need to make.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Matov 30 Apr 21 7.29am
Or, and I accept this takes the potential discussion into a whole new realm, making an assumption that the 'West' is in terminal decline, and I am using the West to mean anything west of the old Iron Curtain, where would you envisage your families future? Dominated by the cultural norms of either pakistan or Poland? Maybe we are in a position of having to face up to who we want our Great-Grandkids to live under? Perogis or Pakora on our descendant's dinner plates? A tad melodramatic I agree but I like playing these 'what ifs' so humour me (or don't) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

30 Apr 21 7.29am

Or, and I accept this takes the potential discussion into a whole new realm, making an assumption that the 'West' is in terminal decline, and I am using the West to mean anything west of the old Iron Curtain, where would you envisage your families future?

Dominated by the cultural norms of either pakistan or Poland? Maybe we are in a position of having to face up to who we want our Great-Grandkids to live under?

Perogis or Pakora on our descendant's dinner plates?

A tad melodramatic I agree but I like playing these 'what ifs' so humour me (or don't)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Badger11 Beckenham 30 Apr 21 8.01am
Originally posted by DanH There’s a myriad of compliance reasons why loads of jobs can’t be easily outsourced like that - multiple legal, tax, data privacy and corporate governance headaches that don’t really make it worthwhile. It’s closely related to my area of expertise and we’re working with loads of employers who have compliance headaches from employees working or wanting to work outside the U.K. I was doing this back in the 90's centralising corporate back offices in Europe 17 different legal systems at least 10 different languages. The Greek banking unions threaten a national strike when I arrived in the country to move my department from Athens to London. In Athens I simply told the Central Bank that we were starting a new business model in London and the branch would just be run down as the old business completed so nothing was actually transferred. A bit of a white lie and they knew it but it got around their rules. The main obstacle to doing this is not legal or regulatory it's about a pool of expertise. London is the Financial capital of the world for that reason. Moving business to India say I had to find experts in Trade Finance who also spoke European languages as well as English. If however the company are prepared to train staff the people are smart and hard working with a great attitude. Not all jobs can be moved so what I did was to break up a job moving the easy bits offshore and creating new roles of expertise in London for the difficiult bits. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 30 Apr 21 8.01am

Originally posted by DanH

It’s closely related to my area of expertise and we’re working with loads of employers who have compliance headaches from employees working or wanting to work outside the U.K.

I was doing this back in the 90's centralising corporate back offices in Europe 17 different legal systems at least 10 different languages. The Greek banking unions threaten a national strike when I arrived in the country to move my department from Athens to London.

In Athens I simply told the Central Bank that we were starting a new business model in London and the branch would just be run down as the old business completed so nothing was actually transferred. A bit of a white lie and they knew it but it got around their rules.

The main obstacle to doing this is not legal or regulatory it's about a pool of expertise. London is the Financial capital of the world for that reason.

Moving business to India say I had to find experts in Trade Finance who also spoke European languages as well as English. If however the company are prepared to train staff the people are smart and hard working with a great attitude.

Not all jobs can be moved so what I did was to break up a job moving the easy bits offshore and creating new roles of expertise in London for the difficiult bits.

One more point

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DanH SW2 30 Apr 21 8.09am
Originally posted by Matov Or, and I accept this takes the potential discussion into a whole new realm, making an assumption that the 'West' is in terminal decline, and I am using the West to mean anything west of the old Iron Curtain, where would you envisage your families future? Dominated by the cultural norms of either pakistan or Poland? Maybe we are in a position of having to face up to who we want our Great-Grandkids to live under? Perogis or Pakora on our descendant's dinner plates? A tad melodramatic I agree but I like playing these 'what ifs' so humour me (or don't) The British cultural norm will always remain strongest. It will just continue to evolve and be influenced by other cultures, as it always has.
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DanH

SW2 30 Apr 21 8.09am

Originally posted by Matov

Dominated by the cultural norms of either pakistan or Poland? Maybe we are in a position of having to face up to who we want our Great-Grandkids to live under?

Perogis or Pakora on our descendant's dinner plates?

A tad melodramatic I agree but I like playing these 'what ifs' so humour me (or don't)

The British cultural norm will always remain strongest. It will just continue to evolve and be influenced by other cultures, as it always has.

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Matov 30 Apr 21 8.21am
Originally posted by DanH The British cultural norm will always remain strongest. It will just continue to evolve and be influenced by other cultures, as it always has. But what if that evolution is beyond insane. Today a Croydon based Police Detective is facing a disciplinary panel, with his job on the line, because of his supposed use of 'racist' names for characters he used in a computer game. And we live in a culture in which it is technically a hate crime, with all that entails, to call the Soham murderer Ian Huntley by that name as he is now Trans. This is modern British culture. This is how it is evolving. And after 10 years of supposed Conservative rule. I cannot even blame the Left for this. This s*** has magnified under Conservative rule. Something is truly rotten in the UK. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

30 Apr 21 8.21am

Originally posted by DanH

The British cultural norm will always remain strongest. It will just continue to evolve and be influenced by other cultures, as it always has.

But what if that evolution is beyond insane.

Today a Croydon based Police Detective is facing a disciplinary panel, with his job on the line, because of his supposed use of 'racist' names for characters he used in a computer game.

And we live in a culture in which it is technically a hate crime, with all that entails, to call the Soham murderer Ian Huntley by that name as he is now Trans.

This is modern British culture. This is how it is evolving. And after 10 years of supposed Conservative rule. I cannot even blame the Left for this. This s*** has magnified under Conservative rule.

Something is truly rotten in the UK.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Orange1290 30 Apr 21 10.08am
Taking back control.....well, Norway certainly is.... [Link] Edited by Orange1290 (30 Apr 2021 10.12am) Pro China, EU & Palestine
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Orange1290

30 Apr 21 10.08am

Taking back control.....well, Norway certainly is....

[Link]

Edited by Orange1290 (30 Apr 2021 10.12am)

Pro China, EU & Palestine

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Badger11 Beckenham 12 May 21 8.57am
Michel Barnier the EU negotiator is planning on running for the French Presidency. Apparently he is rather keen on restricting immigration. I can't think where he got that idea from or why that it would be popular. [Link] Maybe something rubbed off on him during those negotiations. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 12 May 21 8.57am

Michel Barnier the EU negotiator is planning on running for the French Presidency. Apparently he is rather keen on restricting immigration. I can't think where he got that idea from or why that it would be popular.

[Link]

Maybe something rubbed off on him during those negotiations.

One more point

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