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BlueJay UK 13 May 21 11.42pm
In the EU, out of the EU, it's a rigged game either way. I was for leaving, indeed I voted for it, but I think we have to admit that any celebration or idea of a better country is detached from reality and how things are panning out, because it never particularly works out that way. It's layer upon layer of the same protected self interest at the top. We may as well be patting ourselves on the back for sucking a layer off a toff's every lasting gobstopper for all the difference it will make . I'm sure someone will benefit, as happens with any political decision.. and as with most other political moves, it's very unlikely to be us.
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BlueJay

UK 13 May 21 11.42pm

In the EU, out of the EU, it's a rigged game either way. I was for leaving, indeed I voted for it, but I think we have to admit that any celebration or idea of a better country is detached from reality and how things are panning out, because it never particularly works out that way. It's layer upon layer of the same protected self interest at the top. We may as well be patting ourselves on the back for sucking a layer off a toff's every lasting gobstopper for all the difference it will make . I'm sure someone will benefit, as happens with any political decision.. and as with most other political moves, it's very unlikely to be us.

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Matov Online 24 May 21 7.12am
Western powers voice outrage as Belarus accused of hijacking plane [Link] A huge test for the EU here. A flight by an EU company, between two EU capital cities is effectively forced to land in a third country and a passanger removed. They have to react. Personally, I cannot see how they can continue to allow flights to and from Belarus use their airspace anymore and should be diverting everything else as well around it. f***ing with international flights is a serious blip in how things are meant to be done. Edited by Matov (24 May 2021 7.16am) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov Online

24 May 21 7.12am

Western powers voice outrage as Belarus accused of hijacking plane

[Link]

A huge test for the EU here. A flight by an EU company, between two EU capital cities is effectively forced to land in a third country and a passanger removed.

They have to react. Personally, I cannot see how they can continue to allow flights to and from Belarus use their airspace anymore and should be diverting everything else as well around it.

f***ing with international flights is a serious blip in how things are meant to be done.

Edited by Matov (24 May 2021 7.16am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Orange1290 24 May 21 4.23pm
Originally posted by Matov Western powers voice outrage as Belarus accused of hijacking plane [Link] A huge test for the EU here. A flight by an EU company, between two EU capital cities is effectively forced to land in a third country and a passanger removed. They have to react. Personally, I cannot see how they can continue to allow flights to and from Belarus use their airspace anymore and should be diverting everything else as well around it. f***ing with international flights is a serious blip in how things are meant to be done. Edited by Matov (24 May 2021 7.16am) Well, the EU can apply more sanction although there are already a huge number if these imposed already. Additionally, as sanctions are imposed, Putin simply overrides these by supplementing the impact of any sanctions with more support. This in turn alienates and brings Belarus closer to Russia every time the west does this. Sure you can ban Belarussian airlines from landing at European airports and make Belarussian airspace a no go zone but the real issue is Russia, which will cancel out any impact on this relatively small country. Sanctions only hurt the normal residents of Belarus, the 'elite' will feel no effect from them as they will receive reciprocal support from Russia. Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 4.26pm) Pro China, EU & Palestine
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Orange1290

24 May 21 4.23pm

Originally posted by Matov

Western powers voice outrage as Belarus accused of hijacking plane

[Link]

A huge test for the EU here. A flight by an EU company, between two EU capital cities is effectively forced to land in a third country and a passanger removed.

They have to react. Personally, I cannot see how they can continue to allow flights to and from Belarus use their airspace anymore and should be diverting everything else as well around it.

f***ing with international flights is a serious blip in how things are meant to be done.

Edited by Matov (24 May 2021 7.16am)

Well, the EU can apply more sanction although there are already a huge number if these imposed already. Additionally, as sanctions are imposed, Putin simply overrides these by supplementing the impact of any sanctions with more support. This in turn alienates and brings Belarus closer to Russia every time the west does this. Sure you can ban Belarussian airlines from landing at European airports and make Belarussian airspace a no go zone but the real issue is Russia, which will cancel out any impact on this relatively small country.

Sanctions only hurt the normal residents of Belarus, the 'elite' will feel no effect from them as they will receive reciprocal support from Russia.

Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 4.26pm)

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silvertop Portishead 24 May 21 4.55pm
Letting them get away with it otherwise Russia will fill any gap is hardly the answer. Their major trading partners for exports are Russia, Ukraine, UK, Germany and Netherlands; and for imports they are Russia, China, Germany, Poland and Ukraine. Russia is their biggest trading partner by a way but they cannot fill a gap that big if the highlighted countries turn off the trade tap. Severe punishment required from all western aligned countries including freezing any accounts of any high placed individuals and closing their west facing borders.
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silvertop

Portishead 24 May 21 4.55pm

Letting them get away with it otherwise Russia will fill any gap is hardly the answer.

Their major trading partners for exports are Russia, Ukraine, UK, Germany and Netherlands; and for imports they are Russia, China, Germany, Poland and Ukraine. Russia is their biggest trading partner by a way but they cannot fill a gap that big if the highlighted countries turn off the trade tap.

Severe punishment required from all western aligned countries including freezing any accounts of any high placed individuals and closing their west facing borders.

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Badger11 Beckenham 24 May 21 5.21pm
I think the obvious answer is to ban EU airlines from flying in Belarus airspace and the UK should join this. This is a very serious incident indeed. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 24 May 21 5.21pm

I think the obvious answer is to ban EU airlines from flying in Belarus airspace and the UK should join this.

This is a very serious incident indeed.

One more point

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Orange1290 24 May 21 5.28pm
Originally posted by Badger11 I think the obvious answer is to ban EU airlines from flying in Belarus airspace and the UK should join this. This is a very serious incident indeed. That's already been put in place. Unfortunately Alexander Lukashenko and his regime keep little if any of their assets in any other country except for Russia, so attempts at freezing 'assets' won't have any effect. It's very difficult to impact the regime at all, the usual methods just punish the ordinary Belarussian people. He knows this and has organised his regime to be immune from foreign interference, especially as he has Putin's full support and it was probably Putin that suggested the whole incident inn the first place. Pro China, EU & Palestine
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Orange1290

24 May 21 5.28pm

Originally posted by Badger11

I think the obvious answer is to ban EU airlines from flying in Belarus airspace and the UK should join this.

This is a very serious incident indeed.

That's already been put in place. Unfortunately Alexander Lukashenko and his regime keep little if any of their assets in any other country except for Russia, so attempts at freezing 'assets' won't have any effect. It's very difficult to impact the regime at all, the usual methods just punish the ordinary Belarussian people. He knows this and has organised his regime to be immune from foreign interference, especially as he has Putin's full support and it was probably Putin that suggested the whole incident inn the first place.

Pro China, EU & Palestine

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Badger11 Beckenham 24 May 21 5.41pm
Originally posted by Orange1290 That's already been put in place. Unfortunately Alexander Lukashenko and his regime keep little if any of their assets in any other country except for Russia, so attempts at freezing 'assets' won't have any effect. It's very difficult to impact the regime at all, the usual methods just punish the ordinary Belarussian people. He knows this and has organised his regime to be immune from foreign interference, especially as he has Putin's full support and it was probably Putin that suggested the whole incident inn the first place. Yup I just noticed that. The UK has banned air travel whilst the EU is still considering its response. I guess another example of the UK being a bit more nimble than the EU, hopefully they will catch up. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 24 May 21 5.41pm

Originally posted by Orange1290

That's already been put in place. Unfortunately Alexander Lukashenko and his regime keep little if any of their assets in any other country except for Russia, so attempts at freezing 'assets' won't have any effect. It's very difficult to impact the regime at all, the usual methods just punish the ordinary Belarussian people. He knows this and has organised his regime to be immune from foreign interference, especially as he has Putin's full support and it was probably Putin that suggested the whole incident inn the first place.

Yup I just noticed that.

The UK has banned air travel whilst the EU is still considering its response. I guess another example of the UK being a bit more nimble than the EU, hopefully they will catch up.

One more point

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Orange1290 24 May 21 5.48pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Yup I just noticed that. The UK has banned air travel whilst the EU is still considering its response. I guess another example of the UK being a bit more nimble than the EU, hopefully they will catch up. The EU isn't a country of 'sovereign' nation, it can't ban flights on behalf of any individual sovereign nation, that's up to each individual country, just like the UK. Lithuania, bordering Belarus has already banned it's flights from Belarussian airspace. Additionally, not all countries use fly over this area. The EU can consider EU economic sanctions, moves that are at EU level but not at a 'sovereign' level of any nation. Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 5.58pm) Pro China, EU & Palestine
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Orange1290

24 May 21 5.48pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Yup I just noticed that.

The UK has banned air travel whilst the EU is still considering its response. I guess another example of the UK being a bit more nimble than the EU, hopefully they will catch up.

The EU isn't a country of 'sovereign' nation, it can't ban flights on behalf of any individual sovereign nation, that's up to each individual country, just like the UK. Lithuania, bordering Belarus has already banned it's flights from Belarussian airspace. Additionally, not all countries use fly over this area.

The EU can consider EU economic sanctions, moves that are at EU level but not at a 'sovereign' level of any nation.

Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 5.58pm)

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 24 May 21 6.47pm
Originally posted by Orange1290 The EU isn't a country of 'sovereign' nation, it can't ban flights on behalf of any individual sovereign nation, that's up to each individual country, just like the UK. Lithuania, bordering Belarus has already banned it's flights from Belarussian airspace. Additionally, not all countries use fly over this area. The EU can consider EU economic sanctions, moves that are at EU level but not at a 'sovereign' level of any nation. Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 5.58pm) And Ukraine will veto them so no response from the EU will happen at all. There will be tough words. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 24 May 21 6.47pm

Originally posted by Orange1290

The EU can consider EU economic sanctions, moves that are at EU level but not at a 'sovereign' level of any nation.

Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 5.58pm)

And Ukraine will veto them so no response from the EU will happen at all. There will be tough words.

Red and Blue Army!

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Matov Online 24 May 21 6.55pm
Originally posted by Orange1290 The EU isn't a country of 'sovereign' nation, it can't ban flights on behalf of any individual sovereign nation, that's up to each individual country, just like the UK. Lithuania, bordering Belarus has already banned it's flights from Belarussian airspace. Additionally, not all countries use fly over this area. The EU can consider EU economic sanctions, moves that are at EU level but not at a 'sovereign' level of any nation. Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 5.58pm) Which is all well and good but why does the EU then maintain its status as a 'nation'? With all the trappings such as flags, anthems, ambassadors, foreign minstry and so on? Is that all a pretence? The equivalent of allowing a child to dress up in a policeman's costume and everybody pretends it can arrest you until such a time that the grown-ups have to take control? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov Online

24 May 21 6.55pm

Originally posted by Orange1290

The EU can consider EU economic sanctions, moves that are at EU level but not at a 'sovereign' level of any nation.

Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 5.58pm)

Which is all well and good but why does the EU then maintain its status as a 'nation'? With all the trappings such as flags, anthems, ambassadors, foreign minstry and so on?

Is that all a pretence? The equivalent of allowing a child to dress up in a policeman's costume and everybody pretends it can arrest you until such a time that the grown-ups have to take control?

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Orange1290 24 May 21 7.41pm
Originally posted by Matov Which is all well and good but why does the EU then maintain its status as a 'nation'? With all the trappings such as flags, anthems, ambassadors, foreign minstry and so on? Is that all a pretence? The equivalent of allowing a child to dress up in a policeman's costume and everybody pretends it can arrest you until such a time that the grown-ups have to take control? Not at all, it's the largest economic bloc in the world, so it needs to be represented internationally. However, unlike many of those who voted for brexit claiming the UK had lost its 'sovereignty', it was never taken away in the first place and that's been displayed on multiple occasions over the last 12 months, with individual EU member nations managing their own borders, their own vaccination roll outs and this week, their own international air operations. Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 7.42pm) Pro China, EU & Palestine
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Orange1290

24 May 21 7.41pm

Originally posted by Matov

Which is all well and good but why does the EU then maintain its status as a 'nation'? With all the trappings such as flags, anthems, ambassadors, foreign minstry and so on?

Is that all a pretence? The equivalent of allowing a child to dress up in a policeman's costume and everybody pretends it can arrest you until such a time that the grown-ups have to take control?

Not at all, it's the largest economic bloc in the world, so it needs to be represented internationally. However, unlike many of those who voted for brexit claiming the UK had lost its 'sovereignty', it was never taken away in the first place and that's been displayed on multiple occasions over the last 12 months, with individual EU member nations managing their own borders, their own vaccination roll outs and this week, their own international air operations.

Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 7.42pm)

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Matov Online 25 May 21 7.28am
Originally posted by Orange1290 Not at all, it's the largest economic bloc in the world, so it needs to be represented internationally. However, unlike many of those who voted for brexit claiming the UK had lost its 'sovereignty', it was never taken away in the first place and that's been displayed on multiple occasions over the last 12 months, with individual EU member nations managing their own borders, their own vaccination roll outs and this week, their own international air operations. Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 7.42pm) So the EU is really just an organisation then? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov Online

25 May 21 7.28am

Originally posted by Orange1290

Edited by Orange1290 (24 May 2021 7.42pm)

So the EU is really just an organisation then?

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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