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 DanH  SW2 16 Sep 21 12.01pm |
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Originally posted by HKOwen
If tomatoes are going to be destroyed because of a lack of pickers, why not send down fit currently out of work people to pick them ? Provide transport and let them have the dignity of working. Who pays for the transport and accommodation?
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 16 Sep 21 12.04pm |
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Originally posted by HKOwen
If tomatoes are going to be destroyed because of a lack of pickers, why not send down fit currently out of work people to pick them ? Provide transport and let them have the dignity of working. Please explain how this would work outside of a dictatorship. Sounds like forced labour to me. Realistic, workable solutions are probably best. Aren't the right supposed to be all about free will / free speech? Seems slightly contradictory
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| Stirlingsays 16 Sep 21 12.23pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Please explain how this would work outside of a dictatorship. Sounds like forced labour to me. Realistic, workable solutions are probably best. Aren't the right supposed to be all about free will / free speech? Seems slightly contradictory Seems more contradictory to criticise something that ultimately you don't care much for either. Besides, the state has been forcing the great unwashed to work in jobs it doesn't want to do for forty years....you obviously aren't aware of how it works. If a youngster refuses a job they can get their dole stopped or reduced....it's almost quaint that you thought that some kind of 'choice utopia' exists at the bottom end. A far more likely reason this problem isn't solved is because the farmers want their foreign pound of flesh who they can pay badly and push around. A state that viewed this as a significant problem worth solving would also help with automation pickers, which are a thing now and would ease the pressure with certain crops. Instead it fits with one of their excuses for immigration. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Sep 2021 12.28pm)
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 16 Sep 21 1.29pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Seems more contradictory to criticise something that ultimately you don't care much for either. Besides, the state has been forcing the great unwashed to work in jobs it doesn't want to do for forty years....you obviously aren't aware of how it works. If a youngster refuses a job they can get their dole stopped or reduced....it's almost quaint that you thought that some kind of 'choice utopia' exists at the bottom end. A far more likely reason this problem isn't solved is because the farmers want their foreign pound of flesh who they can pay badly and push around. A state that viewed this as a significant problem worth solving would also help with automation pickers, which are a thing now and would ease the pressure with certain crops. Instead it fits with one of their excuses for immigration. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Sep 2021 12.28pm) I mean, we can argue about who is more contradictory but ultimately if you've got an ideology or opinion, perceivably idiotic or otherwise, it kind of makes sense to be consistent. Care for is also rather strong. Have no issue with free speech as defined. Free will is obviously a complex minefield but you get the point. Perfectly fine with incentivisation plus the nuance and context within what you're saying is, of course, well known by most. Choice utopia – I mean, that's a pretty complex topic. There is SOME level of choice there, but rather obviously the system has to create boundaries and incentives somehow, even if it is at the expense of an unfortunate few. I'm also not sure about 'forced' – welfare state and all that. Although with cuts it's certainly, and perhaps rightly, heading that way. Automation pickers and all that will be coming, as you well know. But obviously they're either far too expensive, unsuitable to subsidise or only work in perfect simulation conditions (eg flat, dry ground, larger fruit etc.) for them to be properly considered for UK, industry wide adoption. However this situation might force the developmental hand a bit... Also it's all very well suggesting something that will eventually come in as an immediate solution, but there needs to be a transition strategy, and if we have less foreign labour due to a political decision then someone needs to have thought about the strategy for a stop gap... hang on, I just said strategy and thought in reference to post-Brexit Britain. What was I thinking! Edited by SW19 CPFC (16 Sep 2021 1.30pm)
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| Stirlingsays 16 Sep 21 1.39pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
I mean, we can argue about who is more contradictory but ultimately if you've got an ideology or opinion, perceivably idiotic or otherwise, it kind of makes sense to be consistent. Care for is also rather strong. Have no issue with free speech as defined. Free will is obviously a complex minefield but you get the point. Perfectly fine with incentivisation plus the nuance and context within what you're saying is, of course, well known by most. Choice utopia – I mean, that's a pretty complex topic. There is SOME level of choice there, but rather obviously the system has to create boundaries and incentives somehow, even if it is at the expense of an unfortunate few. I'm also not sure about 'forced' – welfare state and all that. Although with cuts it's certainly, and perhaps rightly, heading that way. Automation pickers and all that will be coming, as you well know. But obviously they're either far too expensive, unsuitable to subsidise or only work in perfect simulation conditions (eg flat, dry ground, larger fruit etc.) for them to be properly considered for UK, industry wide adoption. However this situation might force the developmental hand a bit... Also it's all very well suggesting something that will eventually come in as an immediate solution, but there needs to be a transition strategy, and if we have less foreign labour due to a political decision then someone needs to have thought about the strategy for a stop gap... hang on, I just said strategy and thought in reference to post-Brexit Britain. What was I thinking! Edited by SW19 CPFC (16 Sep 2021 1.30pm) It's a good post with lots of interesting points. It's a shame that today's political left isn't more akin to yourself. As for realistic solutions to immigration....there isn't one. Britain's obsession with 'sermon on the mount' type politics means it'll never make the necessary 'nasty party' policies to stop it. Also in truth, neither the ideological left nor economic right want it....though on this topic the left are honest to their base, while the right aren't. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Sep 2021 1.44pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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cryrst  The garden of England 16 Sep 21 3.01pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Surely that’s obvious Whether food has or hasn’t always been dumped is irrelevant Causality is relevant - what May have caused it 30 years ago might not be what is causing it now. What is also relevant is whether said food would have been dumped regardless, which doesn’t seem to be the case. Simply countering with ‘well X has always happened so what’s your point’ is a bit lazy. ‘Murder rate goes up, in part due to lack of police funding’ - ‘Well murder has always happened so what’s your point’. Riiiiight If I want to get minutely anylsed on everything I say I will talk to my Mrs, and until your last word I was OK with it. You don't have to patronise people because they might not be as bright as you SW thank you very much.
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croydon proud  Any european country i fancy! 16 Sep 21 3.05pm |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Neither were here 30 years ago so what's your point? Brexit is to blame mate, thats the point!
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| Stirlingsays 16 Sep 21 3.47pm |
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Originally posted by croydon proud
Brexit is to blame mate, thats the point! If anything Brexit puts us in a slightly better position next crash. A lot of remainers are blaming Brexit for short term effects which are sometimes covid related. Brexit wasn't a vote taken on economic grounds, but mainly on immigration. The fact that the Tories have knowingly subverted this and increased it anyway was entirely their deliberate choice. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Sep 2021 3.53pm)
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 16 Sep 21 3.50pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
If anything Brexit puts us in a slightly better position next crash. A lot of remainers are blaming Brexit for short term affects which are covid related. And a lot of leavers are claiming Covid is solely responsible for many things of which Brexit is clearly a factor. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
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| Stirlingsays 16 Sep 21 3.52pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
And a lot of leavers are claiming Covid is solely responsible for many things of which Brexit is clearly a factor. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Yep, I don't claim to be an expert on what is exactly causing what. I'd say overall you're probably right.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 16 Sep 21 3.56pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
And a lot of leavers are claiming Covid is solely responsible for many things of which Brexit is clearly a factor. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Yes, thats exactly why I replied in just blaming brexit, because some just blame covid, as you and stirling say, its a bit of both.
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| cryrst The garden of England 16 Sep 21 7.37pm |
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Originally posted by croydon proud
Yes, thats exactly why I replied in just blaming brexit, because some just blame covid, as you and stirling say, its a bit of both. Ahh it was a play on words croydon.
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