I think the 'progressive left'....a term that I think we can say now includes a large chunk of the Tory leadership (though not financially progressive) comprises both the authoritarians and those who aren't so authoritarian.

I think you are right to identify those who seek to force compliance to what they consider 'social norms', when we consider it anything but with their historical understandings of the world being alien and disfigured to us.

You're also right to identify the hypocritical nature of many on the left who themselves live conservative lifestyles while supporting the promotion of lifestyles onto the young which directly harm their prospects of life success relative to them.

However I do think that the concept of free speech is valued by most of the political landscape.....even by many progressives and as I say I do think that it will take more generational change before the more hardline anti speech element have the numbers and by then even they will recognise the pointlessness.

I admit that this is only my take and I could be wrong. For example, the new 'online harms' bill could be a disastrous imposition onto Uk and western freedoms generally and be abused by just the type of people who sent the Police to my door the other week....we will see, I think this type of censorship is being attempted all over Europe.

I think it will result in a fight back once the damage extends into the mainstream.

However, even if they try to operate a soviet type treatment of free speech community building is already quite advanced by most multicultural groups especially non white ones and speech codes will have a much more difficult pathway to enforcement.

I think sensible people will recognise that fragmentation isn't only inevitable but the better option, with the opportunity of working with shared interests only.....similar to us with the EU currently....another progressive pipedream doomed to failure via fragmentation

We will see I suppose but we both believe that the fall of Rome is a repeating cycle and that we both represent just one part of that fragmentation. The only difference being that you feel that we need to push against that wall for it to fall and that the country can be taken back..... whereas I believe its foundations are ultimately so damaged that only time is needed for it to fall of its own volition but that demographics are too far gone for any 'taking back'....but the wall will fall.

I just don't know what is on the other side.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Nov 2021 6.26am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

On the face of it the ignorance of the lessons within 1984 is quite shocking. Then again, it's also a lesson in where power really sits, which is top down as money controls the mouthpieces and institutions.

Society always contains foot soldiers for just about any ideology that takes control of the power structures.....because that's what it's about, most people will bend to whatever the system requires of it because survival is the principle human aim.

Language can be used to justify just about anything as we regularly see on these forums, it's all about the manipulation and framing of arguments. It's easy for the naturally dishonest who have a couple of brain cells or an ideolog who actually believes in the fantasy.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Nov 2021 8.07am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Yep Stirling, there are many threads entwined within 1984. A broken love story, disillusionment, re-writing of history, etc.

My own feelings on the book was that Big Brother didn't exist, but was a figurehead of an entirely human construct. something the elite controlled (wealth, power, goods), but the masses below had the power to change things. The masses were given 'just enough' to get by and to keep their basic need sated.
Assisting the system, obviously gave a better lifestyle.

I ended up feeling angry, that although things could have been better, human nature to improve/rebel, was supressed by lies and other factors.

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

Orwell wrote a biography of his time during the Spanish Civil war when he fought with the communists and how he became disillusioned with the lies they told. If you have read 1984 the genesis of that book is all there in Homage to Catalonia, well worth a read.

Edited by Badger11 (28 Nov 2021 8.26am)

One more point

wrote ?

Damn,....missed the Edit

Edited by Forest Hillbilly (28 Nov 2021 8.27am)

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

And protests have taken a turn for the worse.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill 2021: protest powers
(source gov.uk)
"Protests are an important part of our vibrant and tolerant democracy. Under human rights law, we all have the right to gather and express our views. But these rights are not absolute rights. That fact raises important questions for the police and wider society to consider about how much disruption is tolerable, and how to deal with protesters who break the law. A fair balance should be struck between individual rights and the general interests of the community.

Having reviewed the evidence, our conclusion is that the police do not strike the right balance on every occasion. The balance may tip too readily in favour of protesters when – as is often the case – the police do not accurately assess the level of disruption caused, or likely to be caused, by a protest."

More suppression of free speech, aided by Covid Restrictions.

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak