Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 Stirlingsays  25 Feb 23 11.28am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Academics and policy specialists? Farage and Orban? Says it all really. Add them to the basement boys making videos from a hard right perspective, stir (pun intended) for a while, and it's no wonder this distorted vision is seen. Specsavers do Saturday appointments. Help is at hand. Shows how ignorant you are if you think that just Farage and Orban have articulated this. But hey, you love a basement comment. When this war comes to an end we will see whose position was the more sensible one. Unfortunately our elites went down your path.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| footythoughts Beckenham 25 Feb 23 11.35am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I have no interest in pulling apart all the views of someone whose central plank from the outset has been the appeasement of a brutal dictator Those who gravitate towards fascism due to becoming radicalised often eventually make excuses for dictator types. It's not worth really imagining that there is anything more to it than that really. For a more balanced take I'd say that Chinas involvement could be pivitol at this time. Not that they don't have a dog in this fight - as in they'd love to thumb the eye of the US and haven't even said that Russians troops should leave Ukraine. But at the same time it would be a big win for them to be seen as peace makers on the world stage. As such I see it as being the smart move by Zelensky to offer to meet Xi [Link] A difficult needle to thread but with Ukraine clearly looking to maintain sovereignty and Russia needing to save face, it's an avenue worth exploring. Edited by footythoughts (25 Feb 2023 11.42am)
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| footythoughts Beckenham 25 Feb 23 11.40am |
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There's no a tickertape parade on here based on who is eventually right or wrong in depressing international conflicts. Regardless of our individual takes, which are largely inconsequential since we have no direct say at all, we should all just hope that events pan out in a way that results in the least horrorfic outcome. Utimately the twists and turns of events are multi multifactorial and so the whole I've read up on it a lot angle only gets us so far.
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| Stirlingsays 25 Feb 23 11.42am |
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Cope and excuses. Just as it's always been.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| footythoughts Beckenham 25 Feb 23 12.10pm |
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There's no excuses made for any nation in anything I said. Any solution goes beyond checking a box or pointing a finger as way of resolving it. It may not even be possible due to saving face, or national interest, but then again maybe it is. In a dynamic situation little is absolutely certain, we can only hope for both the situation and those most impacted. Less so for whether we deserve plaudits at the end of it for being right. I was just highlighting that and motivations behind opinion.
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| Stirlingsays 25 Feb 23 12.18pm |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
There's no excuses made for any nation in anything I said. Any solution goes beyond checking a box or pointing a finger as way of resolving it. It may not even be possible due to saving face, or national interest, but then again maybe it is. In a dynamic situation little is absolutely certain, we can only hope for both the situation and those most impacted. Less so for whether we deserve plaudits at the end of it for being right. I was just highlighting that and motivations behind opinion. This may be your position. However, for me, governments that heavily back positions that worsen...possibly for a very long time.... the lives of their citizens aren't worthy of your appeal to moralism. No, in my book, being right matters....hard nosed common sense and looking at the detail matters. I'll have the guy who ends up being right about something and you can have the seething moralist making excuses to the poor and vulnerable about why their lives are now harder. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Feb 2023 12.19pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| footythoughts Beckenham 25 Feb 23 12.37pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
This may be your position. However, for me, governments that heavily back positions that worsen...possibly for a very long time.... the lives of their citizens aren't worthy of your appeal to moralism. No, in my book, being right matters....hard nosed common sense and looking at the detail matters. I'll have the guy who ends up being right about something and you can have the seething moralist making excuses to the poor and vulnerable about why their lives are now harder. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Feb 2023 12.19pm) There is no easy 'right' or 'wrong' here, that's an issue of the ego and a comfort blanket for the self important. Not everything needs to be emotionally led, or framed in a need to appear correct or listened to. That leads to blinkered views and politics, rather than anywhere useful. If we'd have turned a complete blind eye to Ukraine following the invasion, they would've been thrown to the wolves and that in turn has consequences beyond that event. This idea that swooping in with a peace plan while a country is being bombed to hell was some kind of easy magic solution is naive at best. It's a complex, multi faceted situation that has and can yet lurch in a number of ways, not a tick box A or B.
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| Stirlingsays 25 Feb 23 12.52pm |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
There is no easy 'right' or 'wrong' here, that's an issue of the ego and a comfort blanket for the self important. Not everything needs to be emotionally led, or framed in a need to appear correct or listened to. That leads to blinkered views and politics, rather than anywhere useful. If we'd have turned a complete blind eye to Ukraine following the invasion, they would've been thrown to the wolves and that in turn has consequences beyond that event. This idea that swooping in with a peace plan while a country is being bombed to hell was some kind of easy magic solution is naive at best. It's a complex, multi faceted situation that has and can yet lurch in a number of situation, not a tick box A or B.
I would agree, as I did at the start, that Ukraine, especially the pro western parts of Ukraine have suffered the most here and....unfortunately it's going to get worse. Those who really cared about that should have supported the peace moves in March/April. Ukraine would have ended up in a far better position and hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive. We had a chance of avoiding a cold war and the Ukraine would have still been a viable state, but there you go. As it is, this war looks likely to carry on for....in my view at least part of the summer and the Ukraine will have gained nothing from it but bankruptcy and lost territory....and far less fit working age men. We gain significantly more expensive energy and criminal gangs with significant weaponry. Plus we become even more of a client state of the US. As for Germany! Anyway while I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine what happens to my own people is my primary concern. A lot of lies have been made. I only hope that those making all these promises to the Ukraine about its redevelopment actually stick to them....because personally I'm highly skeptical.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| footythoughts Beckenham 25 Feb 23 1.36pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I would agree, as I did at the start, that Ukraine, especially the pro western parts of Ukraine have suffered the most here and....unfortunately it's going to get worse. Those who really cared about that should have supported the peace moves in March/April. Ukraine would have ended up in a far better position and hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive. We had a chance of avoiding a cold war and the Ukraine would have still been a viable state, but there you go. As it is, this war looks likely to carry on for....in my view at least part of the summer and the Ukraine will have gained nothing from it but bankruptcy and lost territory....and far less fit working age men. We gain significantly more expensive energy and criminal gangs with significant weaponry. Plus we become even more of a client state of the US. As for Germany! Anyway while I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine what happens to my own people is my primary concern. A lot of lies have been made. I only hope that those making all these promises to the Ukraine about its redevelopment actually stick to them....because personally I'm highly skeptical.
I certainly appreciate the desire to avoid war, but sooner or later there's not always an easy 'out' when national interest and aspirations are in play. Plus it's a two way street, and Russia has been so relentless and in lack of aknowledgment of their own actions that talks or concessions may not have panned out as expected. People forget the mass dehumanisation angle of Ukranians pushed by government in Russian media in the early days where Putin was somewhat in the dark about the state of his military. Civilians who would even dare resist or not acknowledge Russian occupation were routinely painted as pigs who deserved to be slaughtered and the like. The March to Kyiv wasn't a march towards or interest in peace, it was declaration of a complete lack of interest in it. We would do well to remember that going forward. We are where we are now and and it appears Zelensky thinks the China talks are worth persuing, but clearly much of that success sits with Russia rather than others, on account that they are an actively invading force. As at the start of this invasion, if only Ukranians lay down their arms we shouldn't be surprised if what happenes to them is something we'd come to be ashamed to turn a blink eye to. Consequently, I can see this dragging on for many months longer, if not years unless Russia specifically pause their activities and show genuine interest in drawing this conflcit to an end. I don't have much time for dictator types. The West isn't blameless in this situation, but I felt the need to highlight that without Russia showing any vague or genuine interest in pausing their invasion and aggression it's all a non starter anyway.
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| Stirlingsays 25 Feb 23 2.04pm |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
I certainly appreciate the desire to avoid war, but sooner or later there's not always an easy 'out' when national interest and aspirations are in play. Plus it's a two way street, and Russia has been so relentless and in lack of aknowledgment of their own actions that talks or concessions may not have panned out as expected. People forget the mass dehumanisation angle of Ukranians pushed by government in Russian media in the early days where Putin was somewhat in the dark about the state of his military. Civilians who would even dare resist or not acknowledge Russian occupation were routinely painted as pigs who deserved to be slaughtered and the like. The March to Kyiv wasn't a march towards or interest in peace, it was declaration of a complete lack of interest in it. We would do well to remember that going forward. We are where we are now and and it appears Zelensky thinks the China talks are worth persuing, but clearly much of that success sits with Russia rather than others, on account that they are an actively invading force. As at the start of this invasion, if only Ukranians lay down their arms we shouldn't be surprised if what happenes to them is something we'd come to be ashamed to turn a blink eye to. Consequently, I can see this dragging on for many months longer, if not years unless Russia specifically pause their activities and show genuine interest in drawing this conflcit to an end. I don't have much time for dictator types. The West isn't blameless in this situation, but I felt the need to highlight that without Russia showing any vague or genuine interest in pausing their invasion and aggression it's all a non starter anyway. Well, I try to avoid viewing this war in moral terms....I don't blame you or anyone else for doing that it's just that war is by its nature immoral and so many of them are going on that people don't give a damn about because the media doesn't. I don't really have a desire to get back into the weeds over why the war happened...god knows we all have written enough on that. But I will agree with the point that Russia invaded (something I've never supported) and that Russia has always been interfering in Ukraine.....that said, as it's a border country I think the idea that it wouldn't be in that country is as unrealistic as saying that America doesn't interfere with Mexico. Plus it has a large population of Russian heritage Ukrainians in the south and east....Russia has that partial excuse for interfering, the State department doesn't, other than its seeming desire for anything that divides Russia from Europe. I also agree that the Russia media lies and half truths to its public about Ukraine....dehumanization yes, however this is also true on the other side. I'd argue even more so.....I mean, Ukraine has banned everything other than what Zelensky wants, even churches, whereas you do actually get opposition media in Russia....However, while I am a social conservative, I'm not on here cheer leading for Putin. How he runs Russia, just as how Zelensky runs Ukraine only bothers me insomuch as it affects Britain. We, as in NATO, got militarily and economically involved with this war (and our special forces are heavily involved too) and I think we have made the outcome far worse. As a younger man I was a neo con and supported all of our wars...only later reliasing I'd been lied to (other than agreeing with getting Bin Laden and his organisation). Now I've come to the realisation that wars usually only make sense if it's existential because they cost so much. Usually the only people who benefit are arms dealers and corporations getting stuff cheap once the bullets stop. I understand why nationalists in Ukraine and indeed Russia believe in this war and are prepared to fight and die. There's a lot to that history. However, this isn't my war nor do I believe the propaganda about Russia coming over the hills.....not once I looked into it. I don't see any gain from it and I view the moral arguments in relativist terms.....yes, it is terrible, however while you're sticking pins into your Putin models don't forget to blame the people who led you into a very avoidable war with no upside. Sure Putin is a dictator. I see no reason for you to support him. Putin isn't our friend, however that's never been part of my arguments. Anyway, I think we both desire this over as soon as possible and with the least dead as humanly possible. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Feb 2023 2.16pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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 Wisbech Eagle Online Truro Cornwall 25 Feb 23 2.32pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Shows how ignorant you are if you think that just Farage and Orban have articulated this. But hey, you love a basement comment. When this war comes to an end we will see whose position was the more sensible one. Unfortunately our elites went down your path. I don't think that Farage and Oban are alone. There are others with similar outlooks who hold these views, feeding off each other's prejudices. There are some in the GOP who do. It's nothing new, there have always been these types. When this war does end we won't know anything about the validity of this position. We will just know the war has ended and that the consensus view on how to handle it prevailed. That won't stop people like you claiming everything would be better if only your view had been accepted. Always seeing greener grass in the next field is what sustains people like you. It's what enabled Farage to deliver the Brexit disaster. Which, hopefully, will be informative to those potentially seduced by these type of ideas and beginning to consider forcing a white flag onto Ukraine.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Stirlingsays 25 Feb 23 3.12pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I don't think that Farage and Oban are alone. There are others with similar outlooks who hold these views, feeding off each other's prejudices. There are some in the GOP who do. It's nothing new, there have always been these types. When this war does end we won't know anything about the validity of this position. We will just know the war has ended and that the consensus view on how to handle it prevailed. That won't stop people like you claiming everything would be better if only your view had been accepted. Always seeing greener grass in the next field is what sustains people like you. It's what enabled Farage to deliver the Brexit disaster. Which, hopefully, will be informative to those potentially seduced by these type of ideas and beginning to consider forcing a white flag onto Ukraine. This is you trying to waffle away responsibility for your never ending and seemingly constant establishment support. The view that whatever the result is that your opinion was somehow right. Whereas I'm always very clear about what I regard as a successful outcome. I don't need to waffle away and obfuscate and manipulate truths. A spade is a spade and those who pretend otherwise are always a ball and chain. Brexit? What's Brexit? Perhaps if people with your opinions in power would actually allow Brexit to actually happen we can find out if it'll be a success or not. Besides Brexit was never about economics to most....it was about immigration and that's been totally betrayed.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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