Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 ASCPFC  Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 21 May 23 11.12am |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
'Bakhmut completely destroyed'. And what has that achieved, exactly? Its quite a sight, reminiscient of WW2, the futility of it gets you. China does have an initiative but it does involve Zelensky ceding territory. Not really my place to speculate but, of course I will. You draw the enemy into urban warfare, a war of attrition. You draw them in deeper and deeper. You don't fully retreat, you lose men but you hold some kind of line. The enemy, the attacker, commits more and more men to a small, pointless urban area. They have a high concentration of men and equipment committed to that urban area. You then bring up reserves at night over the space of a few days, and flank the attacking forces on two sides of the urban area. You encircle and besiege the attackers, you use artillery and airpower on the attackers. The attackers need to be rescued or supplied or reinforced or they will be killed and captured. Stalingrad. You'd think the Russians would know.
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footythoughts  Beckenham 21 May 23 2.11pm |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
Not really my place to speculate but, of course I will. You draw the enemy into urban warfare, a war of attrition. You draw them in deeper and deeper. You don't fully retreat, you lose men but you hold some kind of line. The enemy, the attacker, commits more and more men to a small, pointless urban area. They have a high concentration of men and equipment committed to that urban area. You then bring up reserves at night over the space of a few days, and flank the attacking forces on two sides of the urban area. You encircle and besiege the attackers, you use artillery and airpower on the attackers. The attackers need to be rescued or supplied or reinforced or they will be killed and captured. Stalingrad. You'd think the Russians would know. Sounds like a fair assessment. Russia are clearly making gains, but when you look at the fruits of their 'successes' vs their initial plan and intention (to head straight to Kyiv) , it comes at a very heavy cost indeed. As it should. Despots don't often receive realistic assessments of their military strength, more daily 'yes men' bulletins. This clearly hasn't panned out how Putin would've hoped. It's a shame that Ukraine essentially become a proxy for a West vs Russia war, but at the same time, the idea that peace talks with the disingenuous would've led to a reasonable outcome, doesn't sit well with said intentions. An unfortunate and high cost to all is the real fruits of any war situation. Support here for Ukraine is still high (the biggest exceptions are dissident right types who often envy Putin style leaderships and prefer aspects of Ukrainian culture from years back like attacks and murders of gays, above what they appear to fear as the potential import of further tolerance. That and, conversely, the sudden controtions to be aghast to 'Ukranian Nazis' when they more than enjoy a good natter with them when they're 'their own'. Bizarre doesn't cover it, then again there are plenty of examples of that both left and right when people go ideologically 'all in'.). Though amongst normal people I can well see why there would still be concern, financial and safety wise as it's not like the people are ever asked about the level of involvement. It's one of those it will be what it will be situations, as we've just observers really. All we can do is hope that at some stage the cost of this endevour proves to great to continue with.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 21 May 23 4.36pm |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
Not really my place to speculate but, of course I will. You draw the enemy into urban warfare, a war of attrition. You draw them in deeper and deeper. You don't fully retreat, you lose men but you hold some kind of line. The enemy, the attacker, commits more and more men to a small, pointless urban area. They have a high concentration of men and equipment committed to that urban area. You then bring up reserves at night over the space of a few days, and flank the attacking forces on two sides of the urban area. You encircle and besiege the attackers, you use artillery and airpower on the attackers. The attackers need to be rescued or supplied or reinforced or they will be killed and captured. Stalingrad. You'd think the Russians would know. Bakhmut 'Just ruins and dead Russians' - Zelensky
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| matthau South Croydon 21 May 23 4.49pm |
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| Stirlingsays 21 May 23 4.50pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
Bakhmut 'Just ruins and dead Russians' - Zelensky He's just another liar like the rest of them.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matthau South Croydon 21 May 23 4.53pm |
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Imagine if you will, having a human trafficking clean up camouflaged as potential WW3 scenario and even if this is too much for you to accept, imagine WW3 scenerio happening and crypto is the number one topic. Wake up. Buy XRP. you’ll never get this chance again soon. [Tweet Link]
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| Stirlingsays 21 May 23 4.57pm |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
Not really my place to speculate but, of course I will. You draw the enemy into urban warfare, a war of attrition. You draw them in deeper and deeper. You don't fully retreat, you lose men but you hold some kind of line. The enemy, the attacker, commits more and more men to a small, pointless urban area. They have a high concentration of men and equipment committed to that urban area. You then bring up reserves at night over the space of a few days, and flank the attacking forces on two sides of the urban area. You encircle and besiege the attackers, you use artillery and airpower on the attackers. The attackers need to be rescued or supplied or reinforced or they will be killed and captured. Stalingrad. You'd think the Russians would know. We won't know the objective facts until much later but on realities of geography Bakhmut is a central crossroads hub in the Donbas, which is why it was fought over so fiercely by both sides. There are so many lies being floated around over this conflict that it surprises even me. Rather than listening to media interpretations or even what I think, in all honesty I'd look at what actually happens on the battleground for an actual honest appraisal.....of course most people don't have the time or interest in that and so the mainstream, 'support whatever we decide' message is what is believed. When this much anticipated 'counter offensive' is over we will know much more. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 May 2023 4.59pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 21 May 23 6.43pm |
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Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly
Lots of media scaring. Russia Launches missiles at Kyev/arms stores. Russia could break up after the war. Wagner group to storm Moscow and kill Putin. Russian troops in Africa helping migrants to get to Europe. Edited by Forest Hillbilly (01 May 2023 6.07pm) As over 100,000 die and G7 leaders meet over Ukraine, the British media is more concerned over whether Swella broke the ministerial code.
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| Ouzo Dan 21 May 23 8.33pm |
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Ukraine is at a bit of a crossroads at the minute, they have 75,000 freshly trained troops but its likely these will fill in the gaps created from the meat grinder that was Bakhmut. Zelensky is on a world tour going cap in hand from country to country whilst his commander in chief Zaluzhnyi is off attending weddings rather than overseeing the withdrawal of his forces from Bakhmut. Meanwhile Russia has reinforced Crimea to such a point it will probably take 500,000 Ukrainians to retake it. Dare I say it but I feel Ukraine is running out of steam. Edited by Ouzo Dan (21 May 2023 8.36pm)
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| footythoughts Beckenham 22 May 23 11.02am |
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Originally posted by matthau
Imagine if you will, having a human trafficking clean up camouflaged as potential WW3 scenario and even if this is too much for you to accept, imagine WW3 scenerio happening and crypto is the number one topic. Wake up. Buy XRP. you’ll never get this chance again soon. [Tweet Link]
This stuff is basically the 'QDrops' rabbit hole, the other branch being increasingly radicalised and fascistic stuff. Both US imports of course from those firmly planted computer chairs rather than a social or community setting. For what it's worth you've certainly opted for the more benign option. If people want to go all in on a random crypto and drift towards the fantastical, go for it. And who even knows, maybe you will make some money out of it. QANON stuff always had a fantastical, dare I say it almost 'fun' and ridiculous side to it, whereas the fringes of dissident right and ultra race focused types (black hating, jew hating and so on) is far more a disturbing and distilled deumanisation of others writ large. It's quite incredible the outlooks people can take on board or run with really, or turn a blind eye to or excuse. Near no limit in those circles of what some are capable of. Newspaper headlines in waiting. It's something anyone can recognise too, either left or right, simply look at the madness of the extremes of political opposites and that is basically what these people are. The symmetry of the bellcurve.
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Nicholas91  The Democratic Republic of Kent 22 May 23 11.08am |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
This stuff is basically the 'QDrops' rabbit hole, the other branch being increasingly radicalised and fascistic stuff. Both US imports of course from those firmly planted computer chairs rather than a social or community setting. For what it's worth you've certainly opted for the more benign option. If people want to go all in on a random crypto and drift towards the fantastical, go for it. And who even knows, maybe you will make some money out of it. QANON stuff always had a fantastical, dare I say it almost 'fun' and ridiculous side to it, whereas the fringes of dissident right and ultra race focused types (black hating, jew hating and so on) is far more a disturbing and distilled deumanisation of others writ large. It's quite incredible the outlooks people can take on board or run with really, or turn a blind eye to or excuse. Near no limit in those circles of what some are capable of. Newspaper headlines in waiting. It's something anyone can recognise too, either left or right, simply look at the madness of the extremes of political opposites and that is basically what these people are. The symmetry of the bellcurve. Yep. Thank goodness for social media however where they can both scream loudest to others en masse and present a distorted image of the world and it's inhabitants with those outside of the two fringes looking on in bemusement and bewilderment.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| footythoughts Beckenham 22 May 23 11.12am |
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Originally posted by Ouzo Dan
Ukraine is at a bit of a crossroads at the minute, they have 75,000 freshly trained troops but its likely these will fill in the gaps created from the meat grinder that was Bakhmut. Zelensky is on a world tour going cap in hand from country to country whilst his commander in chief Zaluzhnyi is off attending weddings rather than overseeing the withdrawal of his forces from Bakhmut. Meanwhile Russia has reinforced Crimea to such a point it will probably take 500,000 Ukrainians to retake it. Dare I say it but I feel Ukraine is running out of steam. Edited by Ouzo Dan (21 May 2023 8.36pm) Long term you may well be right. With all of the help they're getting - albeit likely not as much as was promised - it's still largely Ukranian feet on the ground. Purely as a numbers game alone, you'd think that the personnel they can throw at this is much more finite than Russia. Equipment-wise Russia has been caught lacking, so ramping that up on the Ukranian side would seem to be their only hope. The West has been tentative in some ways on that front though. Understandably so in some regards, but at the same time I'm not sure this is a situation you can avoid going all in on. It may well end up being something of a pyrrhic victory for the Russians, that would possibly be good enough for Putin. I'd like to think that peace talk could make a difference but for the West this comes off as a way to poke at Russia and knock them back a few decades, and for Russia when we factor in that the plan was to go straight to Kyiv that's hardly indicative of wanting a deal, or being trusted to make one.
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