I think you will find that Putin could end it tomorrow if he wanted to.

The West wants to make ensure that Russia get a bloody nose and think very carefully about military action in the future.

Proxy war is nothing new but certainly, on mainland Europe we are playing with fire all the time this madness continues.
I just don't think the West has any intention of backing down.

It might go badly if we do or if we don't. That is the problem. The chances are that they will eventually find a way for both to save face, but Ukraine is not playing a game here. It has been devastated and many citizens killed.

There has to be a reckoning and consequences for that in some way or other.

I doubt it would end there. But I accept that this is essentially the message the mainstream push.

Both me and Wisbech went over the reasons for this bloody awful war and honestly I've no desire to rehash all that but it's all there.

Yeah, as in we all die.

I will say this, I never agreed with Putin's invasion decision....but like Farage and many others who warned over State department actions in Ukraine I don't accept the lies pushed that this war came out of nowhere and the whole Putin is Hitler nonsense.

It comes down to will...Ukraine isn't and wasn't in Nato....Personally I want peace and I don't care which slav owns what part of Slavic land. When I say that I don't mean there isn't a right or wrong, but that it isn't my fight. What it comes down to is what kind of response someone agrees is the right one.

Plenty of people here though are willing to spends fortunes we don't have....as they did with lockdowns....on this war.

I think....similar to the Syrian war....it's completely nuts and counter productive to our own interests and standard of living.

But hey, it doesn't matter what I think...it's going to happen anyway.

I can say it wasn't the hill I was willing to die on....not that it makes any difference.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 1.31pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I agree that there have been and continue to be lies spread from both sides, but the content of Putin’s speeches leave no doubt that the ultimate goal is the restoration of the Russian empire. As long as he remains in power there is an existential threat to all former soviet republics and a wider potential threat to the countries of Western Europe.

That is why he can not be given any territorial concessions to resolve the current conflict, as unpalatable as that may be to some.

That's just not true.

Again, that's the mainstream messaging coming out from our media, which itself is coming from our state and security services. If you are trying to justify politics that has led to a new cold war it's obviously the line that's going to be taken.

We can cherry pick Biden's speeches and say that the ultimate goal is the break up of Russia.

As if breaking up the second largest nuclear state into different fractions, some of which would have huge anger and resentment, makes any sense at all.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 1.53pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

and their mates as defence company directors and shareholders.

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

China's peace plan would allow Russia to keep the Sea of Azov and the Russian-speaking territories seized by Russia in the Donbass, so we can understand the hurt to Ukraine.

There it could have ended but for Putin's disastrous invasion.

What peace plan does Washington or Europe, actually have? Pouring in weapons making Zelensky seriously think he can regain the Crimea?

If it's the situation that Russia is going to grind out victory regardless of its losses and as long as it may take, and Ukraine does not have nearly the munitions and men we think it does, this needs consideration.