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DanH SW2 24 Sep 19 9.20pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
I would happily torch the entire place tomorrow. Calm down, Guy Fawkes
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silvertop Portishead 24 Sep 19 9.25pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
I would happily torch the entire place tomorrow. I thought you were one of the more measured right wingers on here. How many cleaners security guards and clerks on.minimum wage would you take pleasure in seeing burned alive? The judges have not revoked article 50. They have quite rightly quoshed a decision that even your poster boy Farage thought unlawful. Perspective!
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Matov 24 Sep 19 9.30pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
They did. And a 2nd referendum will prove it.
Let us envisage a turn out of under 50%. With Remain winning by less than 17.4 million votes. Is that more legitimate then the result of June 23rd? Tell me how that solves anything? Yes, we stay in the EU but come the next election and we get a majority for leaving, we go back down the same rabbit hole. OK. So Parliament is bottling a general election. And you are all chuffed that it has asserted its authority which means it can ignore the result from June 23rd without any recourse. Again fine. Let it revoke A50. Let is show us how powerful it is. Do that to us rather than a referendum that nobody with half an ounce of common sense will take in any way, shape or form seriously. It would be a farce and achieve nothing. If Parliament is sovereign then Parliament either acts accordingly or puts itself up for re-election. Let us see how much it values its own worth rather than its cowardly actions of pretending to ask the people then seeking to ignore what the people tell it.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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tome Inner Tantalus Time. 24 Sep 19 9.35pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
So we have Parliament agreeing to hold a referendum with a simple question being posed. Shall we leave or remain in the EU? And the Government says that it will abide by the decision, as does every major political player of the day. We have that vote. And with no serious doubts about the veracity of the voting process. There is a clear winner. 52% vote for us to Leave. Parliament then, by a huge majority, vote for the Article 50 process to be triggered. It is. And we are told that come what may, we will be leaving on March 29th. None of it proviso on a deal being agreed. Then we have a GE. And 80% of people vote for a political party that has campaigned on a straight forward promise to honour the outcome of the referendum. The PM of the day comes back with a deal. It is rejected. Three times. But we are still scheduled to be leaving on March 29th. And we dont. Instead we end up here. Yes, I have written all of this before. But explain this to me. Why should I not be frustrated? Why should I not be utterly dismissive of a political system that has promised me, time and time again, to do what I along with 17.4 million others asked it to do? Yes, the referendum was advisory. And yes, Parliament has the right to change its mind. But if it does so, why would I then subsequently vote in another referendum it offers me on this precise topic? What credibility would that one have in face of the one from June 23rd being ignored despite numerous promises? Surely the refusal to abide by its promise before that one makes any subsequent referendums utterly pointless? Has it ignored any other referendums? Is there a precedent for this? And this self-same Parliament refusing to put itself to the scrutiny of a general election? What has more credibility now? A general election or a referendum? f*** it. And f*** anybody who wants to defend it. If it wants to revoke A50 then let it do so. Let it stand up and proudly hold that vote. I will loathe it for ever more but its authority will be clear for all of us to see and judge accordingly when the next GE comes around. You want us all to just sit back and accept what MP's decide for us all then fine but let them do so openly and without any more deceit. And certainly not with another referendum that solves nothing at all. The problem with the referendum is it posed a simple question to a complex problem. It was in reality 'keep things at they are' versus 'change'. But no one was clear what the leave, or change scenario would actually be. While I don't agree with Corbyn on everything, the idea to work out some options for what leave could mean if it was voted for, then go back to the people with those options and remain is what should have happened in the first place.
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Matov 24 Sep 19 9.36pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
I thought you were one of the more measured right wingers on here. How many cleaners security guards and clerks on.minimum wage would you take pleasure in seeing burned alive? The judges have not revoked article 50. They have quite rightly quoshed a decision that even your poster boy Farage thought unlawful. Perspective! Thats a valid point. I accept that I was wrong in my desire to torch the place. But I am voicing a frustration that millions of others are feeling right now and what I feel that many of you Remainers are unable or unwilling to comprehend. Can you give me a single reason why I should not be highly f***ed off with all levels of our executive at the moment after the assurances it gave us that our vote on June 23rd would matter? And why I should place any faith in voting in any referendum, ever again?
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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silvertop Portishead 24 Sep 19 9.45pm | |
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Originally posted by tome
The problem with the referendum is it posed a simple question to a complex problem. It was in reality 'keep things at they are' versus 'change'. But no one was clear what the leave, or change scenario would actually be. While I don't agree with Corbyn on everything, the idea to work out some options for what leave could mean if it was voted for, then go back to the people with those options and remain is what should have happened in the first place. The 1st para answers the point head on. As for all the threats of mass unrest and election boycott, please! A gaggle of elderly bigots scraping their Zimmer frames about. I think the system will cope. However, like I said, our route is still leave. You act like you've lost already. You rabid conspiracy theorists need more spine.
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tome Inner Tantalus Time. 24 Sep 19 9.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
Thats a valid point. I accept that I was wrong in my desire to torch the place. But I am voicing a frustration that millions of others are feeling right now and what I feel that many of you Remainers are unable or unwilling to comprehend. Can you give me a single reason why I should not be highly f***ed off with all levels of our executive at the moment after the assurances it gave us that our vote on June 23rd would matter? And why I should place any faith in voting in any referendum, ever again? I think whichever way people voted in the referendum, most of them are pretty pissed off. That's the problem with a relatively tight vote - there is no consensus on the best scenario because they all seem bad.
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 9.50pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Calling for a no deal and leaving it on the table are not the same thing. Well, as mentioned many times, I don’t. So I’ll keep on mealing on. Just because I don’t fit into a stereotypical remainer / leaver box doesn’t mean I’m misrepresenting my point of view. That would be a complete waste of time and energy. That may be, but I don’t control a split parliament. I still think that a deal as I’ve laid out is possible. As much as leavers like to say remainer MPs are blocking Brexit, leaver MPs are doing almost as good a job by blocking anything other than a no deal.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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Matov 24 Sep 19 9.50pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
The 1st para answers the point head on. As for all the threats of mass unrest and election boycott, please! A gaggle of elderly bigots scraping their Zimmer frames about. I think the system will cope. However, like I said, our route is still leave. You act like you've lost already. You rabid conspiracy theorists need more spine.
I have conceded, through gritted teeth and still willing to dispute the logic, that a public vote on say a Leave with no deal v leaving with an agreed deal might have a validity but why would a Remain option feature? It lost. Was rejected. It does not deserve a second chance.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 9.53pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
I have conceded, through gritted teeth and still willing to dispute the logic, that a public vote on say a Leave with no deal v leaving with an agreed deal might have a validity but why would a Remain option feature? It lost. Was rejected. It does not deserve a second chance. A second referendum would be nuts (and a bad idea) I do however understand the reasoning behind including remain. It’s been 3 years, and I’d wager most semi-intellectual people on both sides know a lot more about what they voted for than 3 years ago. That alone is reason enough. Time has not stood still. If you don’t understand that you’re blind. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t deny the logic.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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chris123 hove actually 24 Sep 19 9.56pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
A second referendum would be nuts (and a bad idea) I do however understand the reasoning behind including remain. It’s been 3 years, and I’d wager most semi-intellectual people on both sides know a lot more about what they voted for than 3 years ago. That alone is reason enough. Time has not stood still. If you don’t understand that you’re blind. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t deny the logic. Is the Union less federal?
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Matov 24 Sep 19 9.59pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
A second referendum would be nuts (and a bad idea) I do however understand the reasoning behind including remain. It’s been 3 years, and I’d wager most semi-intellectual people on both sides know a lot more about what they voted for than 3 years ago. That alone is reason enough. Time has not stood still. If you don’t understand that you’re blind. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t deny the logic. What logic? How do you define 'semi-intellectual' people? You berated me for being unreasonable and I conceded the point? What does intellect have to do with the reality that Remain was an option in the first referendum and it lost. So therefore if you now want the decision from that first one to be more specific, were is the logic in offering the losing option again? We leave and then hold a referendum on rejoining, it is a fresh question being asked but all a second referendum is about is clarifying what type of leave people might want. If you want it re-run with the same question then fair enough but you don't.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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