The Ukraine is over anyway, regardless of how this ends. That country is in so much debt that no one with two brain cells is going to stay there now.

As for wanting peace, you can't say I want peace but only if the other side do what I want.....well, practically every side in any war ever could say the same.

I put it to you that 'defensive alliances' don't expand. I put it to you that 'defensive alliances' don't place military bases and nuclear capable launchers in Poland a matter of minutes from Russia.

This is just language.....the reality is more grey. Nato exists to oppose Russia. It can also be said that the US are determined to stop a united Europe and fear a German-Russia alliance more than anything.

There are words and then there are actions.

In 2014 the democratically elected pro Russian government was overthrown in a coup supported by the US. That is what led to the revolt in the East and South of Ukraine where former Ukrainian army forces turned against their own state. You act like this didn't happen. This war is a continuation of a conflict that never really stopped.

You talk about an invasion as if the west hasn't been finding reasons to invade other countries for decades.

That's the reality. I listen to all this moralising as if we in the west hadn't ourselves found excuses (in many cases justified) to invade countries all around the world since year dot.....but now when Russia do it apparently we should be morally outraged.

If Russia had spent time in Canada fermenting and funding an anti US movement and supported a coup that placed an anti US government in place......The US would invade Canada the next day.

This is just reality....just like the Russian media justify their state's actions and gain high support for it, our own media do the same with us and your arguments are straight from their news desks.

Ukraine was an authoritarian and corrupt regime, it remains so.....it's pretty similar to Russia. It literally posts hit lists of people it wants to kill...It's called 'Mirotvorets' and Roger Waters was recently added to it to join the list of journalists and academics and anyone else they consider an 'enemy of Ukraine'.

As for war crimes, I condemn all of them, and I also know they have been perpetrated on both sides. The mainstream media mainly highlights the Russian ones and ignores the Ukrainian....or even celebrates it in some cases. All double standards.

I feel I need to restate that many people in the East and South of Ukraine are not anti Russian. They literally took up arms against the coup that took place. Nothing you are saying reflects the divisions that are the reality.

I think it's madness to risk nuclear death for guesses.

This isn't my war and I support realistic negotiations to end it, not 'one side gets all it wants' outcomes. Your idea that Russia would accept defeat is just not realistic. They aren't a democracy. That just isn't that country. Medvedev (former president) said the other day that they would rather lose eighty percent of their own people in a nuclear exchange and have said so....is he bluffing? Don't know, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't accept 'defeat', there would be real consequences....many intelligent people realise this.

You may want to play chicken on that but none of this is in my name. This is your hill to die on not mine. I'll fight and die for wars I believe in....not this one.

I own none of the economic and physical consequences that come from massively extending this war.

Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Oct 2022 3.44pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

There is no point discussing anything with WE.

What I will say to others who doubt what I've said is just remember what Johnson did back when negotiations were on in March/April. He specifically went to Ukraine and he specifically made statements that the Ukraine must not sign a deal that ceded territory.

Liars use language as their tool to mislead. There are no good guys in this war only interests.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Next time you discuss anything with me will be the first time in a very long time. Nowadays, you just bark like an overprotective dog who thinks his territory might be invaded.

Johnson "making statements" is a long, long way from "insisting" something isn't signed! He was in no position then to insist on anything. Johnson made statements on many things which were just hot air for the audience of the day. As I know to my personal cost.

So there is no evidence, beyond a hypothesis, to support the assertion that a deal was done, but scuppered by Biden and Johnson. It's just another fanciful conspiracy theory dreamed up by an unemployed waste of time with a keyboard.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (11 Oct 2022 10.27pm)

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

You forgot 'the not my hill to die on ' bit.

It's always amazing and amusing in equal measure when people see themselves in comments directed at others.

My remark about "an unemployed waste of time with a keyboard" was aimed at those who invent the conspiracy theories and publish them via blogs, twitter posts and videos that some people here feed off. I am unaware of anyone here who has actually started a conspiracy theory. Only spread them.

I suppose the hat seemed to fit. Oh well!

This, by the way, is what Stoltenberg actually said:-

[Link]

I recommend anyone truly interested in what Nato's real position is to read it in full. It's very informative.

Not a word in there that suggests that "a win for Russia would be a defeat for Nato".

What was said, in an answer to a question was " but it will be a defeat and dangerous for all of us, because it will make the world more dangerous and it will make us more vulnerable for further Russian aggression." Which is true, but not the same thing.

He also said "NATO is not party to the conflict."

Maybe stumbling on the truth, rather than spreading untrue quotes . might be a better way of spending time.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Presumably your certainty is because you have evidence of some kind?

I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything.