Israel / Palestine
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 Stirlingsays  27 Jul 14 9.48pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.56pm
And any Israeli who refuses to fight for the IDF is court martialed. Another statement that isn't true. Conscription is mandatory,,,,for understandable reasons but exemptions are given all the time. From 1998 to 2000, 9.5% of applicants who filed for an exemption from service for conscientious reasons were granted it.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matt_himself Matataland 27 Jul 14 9.50pm |
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Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.30pm
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 9.07pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 12.20pm
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 10.57am
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 6.55am
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 12.52am
Quote BobRoberts at 26 Jul 2014 10.24pm
The demonstration goes to show Israel the democracy are the good guys. Your wouldn't get this in Gaza as Hamas would kill all the demonstrators like they did with the Fatah people. Edited by BobRoberts (26 Jul 2014 10.24pm) F*cking bullsh*t. This whole 'support Israel as they have democracy and respect freedom of expression' argument needs to be put in it's place. The concept if democracy encompasses so much more than just being able to vote. When Israel removes so many liberties from Palestinians, both in gaza and in Jerusalem, you see that the modern notion of collective freedom regardless of race, gender etc. isn't respected in any way by Israel, and this is one of the fundamental tenants of western democracy. I don't support Hamas, but Israel are just as bad and the fact we still have such a strong pro-Israel lobby here and in the US exposes the myth that we know what's best. At the end of the day if you live in gaza your life is inconceivably sh*t, and Israel is spreading fear and terror through the lives of thousands. Imagine going to bed and not knowing if your child may be taken or your house blown up by the sunrise. That's what terrorism is, a psychological attack, and as bad as Hamas are I don't deal that fear is on the same level if you are an Israeli.
Anyway, you are obviously pro Palestinian and one of those who thinks all of Israel is bad. Therefore, I ask, do you think being an Israeli family living within range of Hamas rockets is a cakewalk? In addition to having feed your family, you are at risk everyday from a rocket landing on your house or place work or your kids school. The rest of your post is self important bollocks, moralising from a distance and with no practical experience of life in Israel. If you went to Tel Aviv/Haifa, a few of your Guardian inspired prejudices would disappear.
On to your point anyway. Of course I don't support Hamas, I don't support any organisation who's aim is not a peaceful one. Any defence of Palestine I give does not detract from this. Similarly I don't think all of Israel is bad. I know there are plenty of Israelis who think what their government is doing is barbaric, and those I support. As for your question, no, I understand that living in Israel, your life is constantly under a threat, which is admittedly mitigated by having one of the best defensive forces in the world as well as the fact that the weapons fired at you are laughable. I've seen more dangerous stuff go off in the Palace away end than has hit parts of Israel. But it is a threat that shouldn't be there nonetheless. Why I consider myself pro-Palestinian is because, for me, the life they lead is no life at all. What kind of life is it where your kids are snatched from their homes at night? Where you are policed by a force actively oppressing you? Where you can't access certain places, purely because of your nationality, and are tried in courts with a conviction rate of well over 99%? People focus on the death figures, which are shocking, but actually life can be taken away in more ways than one. Having said that, when the firing on Gaza started the other day, I went to bed with 2 reported dead and woke up to hear the figure was over 100. I'm not an emotional person, but to think what they went through compared to my peaceful night's sleep made me well up I'm not ashamed to admit. Thankfully, Israelis don't have to suffer from the above persecutions, but the fact that a nation state can enforce oppression on such a wide scale, in an area where the average age is 17, is a f*cking scandal. That we in the west support them is nothing short of abominable. And as for your last paragraph, no I haven't been to Israel, because I don't have the time and money to trot off to the latest war zone I wish to form an opinion about. On the basis of impartiality, I assume you also went to Gaza and the West Bank to see what conditions are like there as well?
With regards to your other points, I find it amazing that Jews and Arabs co exist happily in places like Tel Aviv/Haifa and yet can't in Gaza and border towns. Why? Well if one were a cynic, one could say that it is in the interest of Arab States and movements for pictures of rockets landing on Gaza, as it mobilises support against Israel and increases for fundraising for their aims. No Arab country is apparently interested in resolving the dispute. Why would that be? Also, when a state is in such turmoil as Gaza, the blame has to lay to a great extent with its government. Hamas is intransigent and will not back down on its aim to destroy Israel and as many Jews as possible on the way. Instead of solely blaming Israel, and there are aspects of the Israeli offensive that are abhorrent, looking towards the Palestinian government for attempting to genuinely reshape its people's future is key. But they won't change, will they? I would also say that swallowing the story that the rockets Hamas are launching into Israel are harmless is damaging. But in your mind, Israel bad, Palestine good. There is no budging from that.
I was listening to an interview with the leader of Hamas on HardTalk, and he actually made a good point in that where Arafat took the moderate, peaceful route and failed, it was inevitable that the Palestinians would look to a more militant, extreme resolution to the conflict. I hope that a peaceful Palestine doesn't involve Hamas and that its people can live a life as comfortable as those in Israel. But I think that the initiative for change must always lie with the powerful; if Israel aren't willing to compromise as they don't seem to and end the blockade, you can't expect Hamas to lead the way either. Here is an example of Palestinian intransigence. Israel offers a ceasefire, Hamas says, without Israel doing anything, Israel has a lack of commitment and launches rockets at Southern Israel. Thus, Israel drops the truce and the offensive continues. Hamas is the root cause of a lot of this. You can believe otherwise, that is your prerogative but it ain't the truth.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 27 Jul 14 9.51pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 8.53pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.45pm
So you support Israel's right to kill hamas, but you don't support the right of hamas to kill those that don't want a palestinian state. A bit one sided? As for Isis, that's a whole new thread... I do support a two state solution created so that both countries can genuinely live in peace.
That's quite interesting Stirling, what would propose to be the borders of the two states?
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 27 Jul 14 9.52pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.40pm
Troll, I suggest evidence may be required.
You started this Champagne Charlie, not me. Based on your posts have you been to Hebron? Easy question.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| matt_himself Matataland 27 Jul 14 9.58pm |
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Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.52pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.40pm
Troll, I suggest evidence may be required.
You started this Champagne Charlie, not me. Based on your posts have you been to Hebron? Easy question. Hilarious. Hoisted by your own petard and you result to Gusset-isms. In answer to your question, yes.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 27 Jul 14 10.03pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.50pm
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.30pm
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 9.07pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 12.20pm
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 10.57am
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 6.55am
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 12.52am
Quote BobRoberts at 26 Jul 2014 10.24pm
The demonstration goes to show Israel the democracy are the good guys. Your wouldn't get this in Gaza as Hamas would kill all the demonstrators like they did with the Fatah people. Edited by BobRoberts (26 Jul 2014 10.24pm) F*cking bullsh*t. This whole 'support Israel as they have democracy and respect freedom of expression' argument needs to be put in it's place. The concept if democracy encompasses so much more than just being able to vote. When Israel removes so many liberties from Palestinians, both in gaza and in Jerusalem, you see that the modern notion of collective freedom regardless of race, gender etc. isn't respected in any way by Israel, and this is one of the fundamental tenants of western democracy. I don't support Hamas, but Israel are just as bad and the fact we still have such a strong pro-Israel lobby here and in the US exposes the myth that we know what's best. At the end of the day if you live in gaza your life is inconceivably sh*t, and Israel is spreading fear and terror through the lives of thousands. Imagine going to bed and not knowing if your child may be taken or your house blown up by the sunrise. That's what terrorism is, a psychological attack, and as bad as Hamas are I don't deal that fear is on the same level if you are an Israeli.
Anyway, you are obviously pro Palestinian and one of those who thinks all of Israel is bad. Therefore, I ask, do you think being an Israeli family living within range of Hamas rockets is a cakewalk? In addition to having feed your family, you are at risk everyday from a rocket landing on your house or place work or your kids school. The rest of your post is self important bollocks, moralising from a distance and with no practical experience of life in Israel. If you went to Tel Aviv/Haifa, a few of your Guardian inspired prejudices would disappear.
On to your point anyway. Of course I don't support Hamas, I don't support any organisation who's aim is not a peaceful one. Any defence of Palestine I give does not detract from this. Similarly I don't think all of Israel is bad. I know there are plenty of Israelis who think what their government is doing is barbaric, and those I support. As for your question, no, I understand that living in Israel, your life is constantly under a threat, which is admittedly mitigated by having one of the best defensive forces in the world as well as the fact that the weapons fired at you are laughable. I've seen more dangerous stuff go off in the Palace away end than has hit parts of Israel. But it is a threat that shouldn't be there nonetheless. Why I consider myself pro-Palestinian is because, for me, the life they lead is no life at all. What kind of life is it where your kids are snatched from their homes at night? Where you are policed by a force actively oppressing you? Where you can't access certain places, purely because of your nationality, and are tried in courts with a conviction rate of well over 99%? People focus on the death figures, which are shocking, but actually life can be taken away in more ways than one. Having said that, when the firing on Gaza started the other day, I went to bed with 2 reported dead and woke up to hear the figure was over 100. I'm not an emotional person, but to think what they went through compared to my peaceful night's sleep made me well up I'm not ashamed to admit. Thankfully, Israelis don't have to suffer from the above persecutions, but the fact that a nation state can enforce oppression on such a wide scale, in an area where the average age is 17, is a f*cking scandal. That we in the west support them is nothing short of abominable. And as for your last paragraph, no I haven't been to Israel, because I don't have the time and money to trot off to the latest war zone I wish to form an opinion about. On the basis of impartiality, I assume you also went to Gaza and the West Bank to see what conditions are like there as well?
With regards to your other points, I find it amazing that Jews and Arabs co exist happily in places like Tel Aviv/Haifa and yet can't in Gaza and border towns. Why? Well if one were a cynic, one could say that it is in the interest of Arab States and movements for pictures of rockets landing on Gaza, as it mobilises support against Israel and increases for fundraising for their aims. No Arab country is apparently interested in resolving the dispute. Why would that be? Also, when a state is in such turmoil as Gaza, the blame has to lay to a great extent with its government. Hamas is intransigent and will not back down on its aim to destroy Israel and as many Jews as possible on the way. Instead of solely blaming Israel, and there are aspects of the Israeli offensive that are abhorrent, looking towards the Palestinian government for attempting to genuinely reshape its people's future is key. But they won't change, will they? I would also say that swallowing the story that the rockets Hamas are launching into Israel are harmless is damaging. But in your mind, Israel bad, Palestine good. There is no budging from that.
I was listening to an interview with the leader of Hamas on HardTalk, and he actually made a good point in that where Arafat took the moderate, peaceful route and failed, it was inevitable that the Palestinians would look to a more militant, extreme resolution to the conflict. I hope that a peaceful Palestine doesn't involve Hamas and that its people can live a life as comfortable as those in Israel. But I think that the initiative for change must always lie with the powerful; if Israel aren't willing to compromise as they don't seem to and end the blockade, you can't expect Hamas to lead the way either. Here is an example of Palestinian intransigence. Israel offers a ceasefire, Hamas says, without Israel doing anything, Israel has a lack of commitment and launches rockets at Southern Israel. Thus, Israel drops the truce and the offensive continues. Hamas is the root cause of a lot of this. You can believe otherwise, that is your prerogative but it ain't the truth.
Also, Serial Tedium. Matt, you can do so much better.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 14 10.06pm |
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Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.51pm
Israel and Fatah came very close with that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 27 Jul 14 10.12pm |
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. Edited by legaleagle (27 Jul 2014 10.13pm)
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| legaleagle 27 Jul 14 10.13pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 9.48pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.56pm
And any Israeli who refuses to fight for the IDF is court martialed. Another statement that isn't true. Conscription is mandatory,,,,for understandable reasons but exemptions are given all the time. From 1998 to 2000, 9.5% of applicants who filed for an exemption from service for conscientious reasons were granted it. ..................................................
Edited by legaleagle (27 Jul 2014 10.18pm)
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| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 14 10.20pm |
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Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 10.03pm
But Israel has been persecuting the Palestinians for a lot longer than the 8 years Hamas has been in control, so how can they be the root cause? They aren't helping the situation by ignoring ceasefires, but the blame lies at least equally with Israel. Also, Serial Tedium. Matt, you can do so much better.
On the other hand. A peace solution with Hamas in power is impossible. That's pretty much that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 27 Jul 14 10.22pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.58pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.52pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.40pm
Troll, I suggest evidence may be required.
You started this Champagne Charlie, not me. Based on your posts have you been to Hebron? Easy question. Hilarious. Hoisted by your own petard and you result to Gusset-isms. In answer to your question, yes. Obviously not as a resident, that makes you a tourist or a soldier? One gives you an "experience" behind an armed shield, the other puts the gun in your hands. As a group of guys, many years ago, not in Palestine, once said to me, unless you are here to make a difference then f*** off. However, that said I doubt, with the warped day I spent with them, they would have understood the impartiality of a neutral observer, or the views of the indigenous population. They had been indoctrinated. As an atheist I can say, the problem is when an individual's religion gets in the way seeing non-ideological solutions. That doesn't mean all people of religion are unintelligent or evil, most of all religions wish to live in peace, just that some are intransigent to extent of condoning murder or ethic cleansing.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| matt_himself Matataland 27 Jul 14 10.26pm |
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Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 10.22pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.58pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.52pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.40pm
Troll, I suggest evidence may be required.
You started this Champagne Charlie, not me. Based on your posts have you been to Hebron? Easy question. Hilarious. Hoisted by your own petard and you result to Gusset-isms. In answer to your question, yes. Obviously not as a resident, that makes you a tourist or a soldier? One gives you an "experience" behind an armed shield, the other puts the gun in your hands. As a group of guys, many years ago, not in Palestine, once said to me, unless you are here to make a difference then f*** off. However, that said I doubt, with the warped day I spent with them, they would have understood the impartiality of a neutral observer, or the views of the indigenous population. They had been indoctrinated. As an atheist I can say, the problem is when an individual's religion gets in the way seeing non-ideological solutions. That doesn't mean all people of religion are unintelligent or evil, most of all religions wish to live in peace, just that some are intransigent to extent of condoning murder or ethic cleansing. What the f*** has the above got to do with anything?
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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