Confederate Flag

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 22 Jul 15 4.10pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 4.01pm Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 3.35pm Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 3.25pm Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm Let's get the swastikas out then... What are the alternative meanings for the Swastika that someone could have to wave it? Something Buddhist perhaps? Sure, except that it's not exactly the same design....It wouldn't be the Germanic Swastika nor is there a tradition of this symbol being used as a national unifying symbol. Besides the Buddhists took it from the Hindus......Which is a lot older than Buddhism Nick. I know Stirling, you forget us primary lot teach all curriculum subjects (notwithstanding the fact that secondary teachers also do as a result of the complete ignorance of the concept of 'rarely cover' to save costs) The picture was the first that appeared in a search. And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 22 Jul 15 4.10pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 4.01pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 3.35pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 3.25pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm

Let's get the swastikas out then...

What are the alternative meanings for the Swastika that someone could have to wave it?

Something Buddhist perhaps?

Sure, except that it's not exactly the same design....It wouldn't be the Germanic Swastika nor is there a tradition of this symbol being used as a national unifying symbol.

Besides the Buddhists took it from the Hindus......Which is a lot older than Buddhism Nick.

I know Stirling, you forget us primary lot teach all curriculum subjects (notwithstanding the fact that secondary teachers also do as a result of the complete ignorance of the concept of 'rarely cover' to save costs) The picture was the first that appeared in a search.

And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jul 15 4.33pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 4.01pm Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 3.35pm Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 3.25pm Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm Let's get the swastikas out then... What are the alternative meanings for the Swastika that someone could have to wave it? Something Buddhist perhaps? Sure, except that it's not exactly the same design....It wouldn't be the Germanic Swastika nor is there a tradition of this symbol being used as a national unifying symbol. Besides the Buddhists took it from the Hindus......Which is a lot older than Buddhism Nick. Buddhism is a form of Hinduism. The first Buddha is regarding as an incarnation of Vishnu. The Nazi Swastika is usually black, angled, in a white circle on a red background. The hindu swastika has the sherrif like parts the other way around, as is generally presented as straight on, rather than angled. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Jul 15 4.33pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 4.01pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 3.35pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 3.25pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm

Let's get the swastikas out then...

What are the alternative meanings for the Swastika that someone could have to wave it?

Something Buddhist perhaps?

Sure, except that it's not exactly the same design....It wouldn't be the Germanic Swastika nor is there a tradition of this symbol being used as a national unifying symbol.

Besides the Buddhists took it from the Hindus......Which is a lot older than Buddhism Nick.

Buddhism is a form of Hinduism. The first Buddha is regarding as an incarnation of Vishnu.

The Nazi Swastika is usually black, angled, in a white circle on a red background. The hindu swastika has the sherrif like parts the other way around, as is generally presented as straight on, rather than angled.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jul 15 4.34pm
Its also pretty rare to see a Swastika in Hinduism on a flag. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Jul 15 4.34pm

Its also pretty rare to see a Swastika in Hinduism on a flag.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 22 Jul 15 4.43pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jul 2015 4.34pm Its also pretty rare to see a Swastika in Hinduism on a flag. Pedant
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 22 Jul 15 4.43pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jul 2015 4.34pm

Its also pretty rare to see a Swastika in Hinduism on a flag.

Pedant

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Stirlingsays 22 Jul 15 4.52pm
Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 3.36pm Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 2.37pm Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask. To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones. The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example. The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know. To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference. Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too. Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south. People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is. Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some. Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me. Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 2.38pm) And many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless. Does that make it OK? People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery. They might have had no choice as an individual, they might not have owned slaves, and I had already pointed that out, but the fact of the matter remains that the cause for which they fought wanted to maintain slavery in perpetuity. You can dance around that all you want, but that does not change the facts. As for your comments about slaves fighting for the South, many slaves were forced to work for the Confederate Army, as servants, laborer or cooks, etc. However, the idea that large numbers of slaves voluntarily fought for the South is spurious at best. But, I grant, there is some evidence that as many as several hundred slaves might have served in the Confederate Army as soldiers. However, that should be balanced by the fact that at least 180,000 fled north and joined the federal forces. By the way, when you say "people like yourself", that is not even an argument it is simply pejorative. Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it. The Confederate flag was created explicitly to identify regiments fighting for a pro slavery cause. It is not merely connected to slavery and racism, it was created as a symbol of it with the sole purpose of identifying people fighting for that cause. The point is, the Confederate flag does not represent the South. It represents a select group of people in the South who have decided upon the narrative they wanted to create. If people want to wave the flag, that is fine by me. However, if they don't like people pointing out the explicit connection with slavery and racism then they should stop whining about it and ignore the criticism, or stop waving the thing. Edited by NickinOX (22 Jul 2015 3.38pm) 'People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery'. No, the end result of an action does not equal the motivation for that action. For example the people who voted in Hollande were not voting for the collapse of the economy even if that was the end result. 'many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless' This statement that non Germans fought for the Nazi cause is simplistic. No, they fought for many different reasons but the unifying one was nationalism. German society was destroyed after WW2, especially the parts under Soviet control. Most people would fight for their way of life. Your summaries may work in your head but they don't speak for others. Going back to slavery it didn't really end with the civil war....It continued by the use of forced labour under the guise of mostly pretend jail sentences.....It was slavery in all but name. Jefferson did nothing about it. It partly proves that just like the confederate flag doesn't just carry a single slavery narrative nor does the civil war carry a single narrative....There were other additional reasons for it. Lincoln nor Jefferson treated black people equally and there is historical evidence to back that up.....The civil war wasn't just about slavery......So you stating that people were fighting for this.....or that people were fighting for that....is simplistic. So I'm not dancing nor do I wish to change facts. Instead I wish to present history as it is....Not how some wish to see it. When I said, 'people like yourself' I didn't intend to insult. Instead I wished to describe those you hold your view.....You yourself are choosing to see that as pejorative. 'Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it.' I didn't say 'you' claimed the people who waived the flag were evil....You really should read the text before going on about straw man arguments. I simply said that there was an attitude going around that people waving the Confederate flag were evil...I didn't say that this was 'your' attitude. I think that's been backed up by the reaction to this latest mindless mass murder by some opponents to the flag....Where a connection between supporting evil inhumanities like slavery and waving the General Lee has been made.....And I'd say supporting slavery is evil. The reasons people choose to wave flags need to be ascertained with some flags....That's actually a part of our law....This flag has a past of being used in country music and southern entertainment shows of the past that intended no racism......I'm pretty sure that if you asked for the reason most people fly a flag they are going to tell you.....I don't support the idea of telling others what their flag represents when they say it represents something else. People can fly the General Lee and not support slavery or racism.....Like I said, a disclaimer would work for that. Though I'd never fly it myself.....It doesn't represent me. Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 5.01pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

22 Jul 15 4.52pm

Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 3.36pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 2.37pm

Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am

This is a matter of freedom of expression for me.

I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that.

However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association.

It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like.

For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense.

It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask.

To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones.

The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example.

The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know.

To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference.

Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too.

Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south.

People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is.

Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some.

Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 2.38pm)

And many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless. Does that make it OK? People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery. They might have had no choice as an individual, they might not have owned slaves, and I had already pointed that out, but the fact of the matter remains that the cause for which they fought wanted to maintain slavery in perpetuity. You can dance around that all you want, but that does not change the facts.

As for your comments about slaves fighting for the South, many slaves were forced to work for the Confederate Army, as servants, laborer or cooks, etc. However, the idea that large numbers of slaves voluntarily fought for the South is spurious at best. But, I grant, there is some evidence that as many as several hundred slaves might have served in the Confederate Army as soldiers. However, that should be balanced by the fact that at least 180,000 fled north and joined the federal forces.

By the way, when you say "people like yourself", that is not even an argument it is simply pejorative. Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it.

The Confederate flag was created explicitly to identify regiments fighting for a pro slavery cause. It is not merely connected to slavery and racism, it was created as a symbol of it with the sole purpose of identifying people fighting for that cause.

The point is, the Confederate flag does not represent the South. It represents a select group of people in the South who have decided upon the narrative they wanted to create. If people want to wave the flag, that is fine by me. However, if they don't like people pointing out the explicit connection with slavery and racism then they should stop whining about it and ignore the criticism, or stop waving the thing.

Edited by NickinOX (22 Jul 2015 3.38pm)

'People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery'.

No, the end result of an action does not equal the motivation for that action. For example the people who voted in Hollande were not voting for the collapse of the economy even if that was the end result.

'many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless'

This statement that non Germans fought for the Nazi cause is simplistic. No, they fought for many different reasons but the unifying one was nationalism.

German society was destroyed after WW2, especially the parts under Soviet control. Most people would fight for their way of life.

Your summaries may work in your head but they don't speak for others.

Going back to slavery it didn't really end with the civil war....It continued by the use of forced labour under the guise of mostly pretend jail sentences.....It was slavery in all but name.

Jefferson did nothing about it. It partly proves that just like the confederate flag doesn't just carry a single slavery narrative nor does the civil war carry a single narrative....There were other additional reasons for it.

Lincoln nor Jefferson treated black people equally and there is historical evidence to back that up.....The civil war wasn't just about slavery......So you stating that people were fighting for this.....or that people were fighting for that....is simplistic.

So I'm not dancing nor do I wish to change facts. Instead I wish to present history as it is....Not how some wish to see it.

When I said, 'people like yourself' I didn't intend to insult. Instead I wished to describe those you hold your view.....You yourself are choosing to see that as pejorative.

'Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it.'

I didn't say 'you' claimed the people who waived the flag were evil....You really should read the text before going on about straw man arguments. I simply said that there was an attitude going around that people waving the Confederate flag were evil...I didn't say that this was 'your' attitude.

I think that's been backed up by the reaction to this latest mindless mass murder by some opponents to the flag....Where a connection between supporting evil inhumanities like slavery and waving the General Lee has been made.....And I'd say supporting slavery is evil.

The reasons people choose to wave flags need to be ascertained with some flags....That's actually a part of our law....This flag has a past of being used in country music and southern entertainment shows of the past that intended no racism......I'm pretty sure that if you asked for the reason most people fly a flag they are going to tell you.....I don't support the idea of telling others what their flag represents when they say it represents something else.

People can fly the General Lee and not support slavery or racism.....Like I said, a disclaimer would work for that.

Though I'd never fly it myself.....It doesn't represent me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 5.01pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 22 Jul 15 5.00pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jul 2015 4.33pm Buddhism is a form of Hinduism. The first Buddha is regarding as an incarnation of Vishnu. The Nazi Swastika is usually black, angled, in a white circle on a red background. The hindu swastika has the sherrif like parts the other way around, as is generally presented as straight on, rather than angled. Yeah....different designs really. 'Buddhism is a form of Hinduism'....Isn't this like saying Christianity is a form of Judaism? At the very start both could be looked at as something like that. But to be honest non of these religions would really be happy seeing themselves in that vein now. Though obviously there is a strong element of truth there. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

22 Jul 15 5.00pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jul 2015 4.33pm

Buddhism is a form of Hinduism. The first Buddha is regarding as an incarnation of Vishnu.

Yeah....different designs really.

'Buddhism is a form of Hinduism'....Isn't this like saying Christianity is a form of Judaism?

At the very start both could be looked at as something like that. But to be honest non of these religions would really be happy seeing themselves in that vein now.

Though obviously there is a strong element of truth there.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 22 Jul 15 5.01pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.43pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jul 2015 4.34pm Its also pretty rare to see a Swastika in Hinduism on a flag. Pedant Kind of more...accurate I'd say. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

22 Jul 15 5.01pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.43pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jul 2015 4.34pm

Its also pretty rare to see a Swastika in Hinduism on a flag.

Pedant

Kind of more...accurate I'd say.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 22 Jul 15 5.05pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.10pm I know Stirling, you forget us primary lot teach all curriculum subjects (notwithstanding the fact that secondary teachers also do as a result of the complete ignorance of the concept of 'rarely cover' to save costs) The picture was the first that appeared in a search. And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?) I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

22 Jul 15 5.05pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.10pm

And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?)

I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ghosteagle 22 Jul 15 5.08pm
Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 3.36pm Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 2.37pm Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask. To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones. The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example. The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know. To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference. Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too. Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south. People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is. Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some. Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me. Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 2.38pm) And many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless. Does that make it OK? People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery. They might have had no choice as an individual, they might not have owned slaves, and I had already pointed that out, but the fact of the matter remains that the cause for which they fought wanted to maintain slavery in perpetuity. You can dance around that all you want, but that does not change the facts. As for your comments about slaves fighting for the South, many slaves were forced to work for the Confederate Army, as servants, laborer or cooks, etc. However, the idea that large numbers of slaves voluntarily fought for the South is spurious at best. But, I grant, there is some evidence that as many as several hundred slaves might have served in the Confederate Army as soldiers. However, that should be balanced by the fact that at least 180,000 fled north and joined the federal forces. By the way, when you say "people like yourself", that is not even an argument it is simply pejorative. Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it. The Confederate flag was created explicitly to identify regiments fighting for a pro slavery cause. It is not merely connected to slavery and racism, it was created as a symbol of it with the sole purpose of identifying people fighting for that cause. The point is, the Confederate flag does not represent the South. It represents a select group of people in the South who have decided upon the narrative they wanted to create. If people want to wave the flag, that is fine by me. However, if they don't like people pointing out the explicit connection with slavery and racism then they should stop whining about it and ignore the criticism, or stop waving the thing. Edited by NickinOX (22 Jul 2015 3.38pm) Cut and dried.
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ghosteagle

22 Jul 15 5.08pm