Jordan (the country)

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legaleagle 04 Feb 15 9.27pm
Quote elgrande at 04 Feb 2015 2.53pm Quote serial thriller at 04 Feb 2015 1.43pm Other thing to say is that ISIS are an incredibly disparate organisation, so bombing them out of existence just isn't an option. They have managed to mobilise supporters in parts of the Western world, as well as in Northern and Western Iraq and Eastern Syria. Despite calling themselves a 'state' they are nothing of the kind; they are an ideological collective desiring global adherence to their interpretation of Islam. To be an ideological rather than a national group means that they will always be transnational, gaining support wherever other radical elements of Islam reside. If you view them in purely religious terms though, it's easy to justify belligerent measures, because you can 'other' them as some sort of brainwashed sub-human nutters. Actually, like any group, they are influenced by the wider political and economic landscape they find themselves in, one where we, as Jamie said, have bombed them to sht, then armed them to fight Assad, then bombed them some more. The areas they are thriving in are in such extreme poverty and destitution that a group of intellectual radicals can seem very appealing, especially if their rhetoric is absolutely anti-Western. What we really should be doing is building bridges in the surrounding areas to prevent the spread, arming local groups combatting IS (like the Rojava area of Syria I linked in the other thread) and combatting the anti-Islamic rhetoric in the West which is turning many disillusioned young Muslim blokes to sympathise with them. But of course we're not doing that, we're instead looking short term and assume bombing the sht out of an area we've bombed the sh*t out of several times in the last few decades will solve the problem. [Link] Edited by serial thriller (04 Feb 2015 1.44pm) So how doe's killing "fellow Muslims " fit into that ideal then. Shia muslims have,amongst others, ie christians, yazadis and kurds, borne the brunt on fairly sectarian lines of death from ISIS within the "caliphate". I believe many kurds are sunni muslims. To be more precise re shia muslims, the Saudi Arabian-originating salafist/wahhabi (IMO and generalising in many ways a pretty "extreme"/bonkers) strain of sunni islam (on which ISIS' ideology is at core based), regards shia muslims (about 15% of the world's muslims) as not proper muslims because of a schism about 1,400 years ago within Islam over who was the Prophet's true designated "successor" after his death. Also,equally sectarian shia muslims (militarily "sponsored" by Iran and to whom the US has arguably turned a blind eye in recent times)have for some years embarked on killings in Iraq of sunni muslims,which helps sow the ground for a certain level of acceptance/tolerance of ISIS within the wider sunni community in the "caliphate". All of which marks the seeming possible end of what was for hundreds of years a relatively religiously pluralistic society,where christians (living in Iraq since ancient times) until recently generally were thought of/thought of themselves as Iraqi to the core since Iraq had been created,and where early Arab nationalists in Iraq defined the Jewish community in Iraq (which had also existed as a community in Iraq going back to ancient times) as Arabs.Under Saddam,the shia community (about 60-70% of the population) had,relatively speaking,been locked out of power vis a vis the sunnis,not to mention his use of chemical weapons against the kurds. The Jews,caught up as domestic pawns in the political aspects of the Iraqi-Israeli/Palestinian situation and the influence of nazi propaganda from the mid-1930's onwards, ceased to exist in a meaningful way as a community in Iraq over 60 years ago, and not from any general long-held desire on their part to go and live in Israel/Palestine. So,I'm not sure any question of "how come ISIS kill a fellow-muslim",is anything new or out of the ordinary compared to their norm, and bearing in mind (with no judgement/justification attached but just as a fact)that the Jordanian guy had presumably been on a mission to bomb (ie likely kill) some of them. Edited by legaleagle (04 Feb 2015 11.32pm)
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legaleagle

04 Feb 15 9.27pm

Quote elgrande at 04 Feb 2015 2.53pm

Quote serial thriller at 04 Feb 2015 1.43pm

Other thing to say is that ISIS are an incredibly disparate organisation, so bombing them out of existence just isn't an option. They have managed to mobilise supporters in parts of the Western world, as well as in Northern and Western Iraq and Eastern Syria. Despite calling themselves a 'state' they are nothing of the kind; they are an ideological collective desiring global adherence to their interpretation of Islam. To be an ideological rather than a national group means that they will always be transnational, gaining support wherever other radical elements of Islam reside.

If you view them in purely religious terms though, it's easy to justify belligerent measures, because you can 'other' them as some sort of brainwashed sub-human nutters. Actually, like any group, they are influenced by the wider political and economic landscape they find themselves in, one where we, as Jamie said, have bombed them to sh*t, then armed them to fight Assad, then bombed them some more. The areas they are thriving in are in such extreme poverty and destitution that a group of intellectual radicals can seem very appealing, especially if their rhetoric is absolutely anti-Western.

What we really should be doing is building bridges in the surrounding areas to prevent the spread, arming local groups combatting IS (like the Rojava area of Syria I linked in the other thread) and combatting the anti-Islamic rhetoric in the West which is turning many disillusioned young Muslim blokes to sympathise with them. But of course we're not doing that, we're instead looking short term and assume bombing the sh*t out of an area we've bombed the sh*t out of several times in the last few decades will solve the problem.

[Link]

Edited by serial thriller (04 Feb 2015 1.44pm)

So how doe's killing "fellow Muslims " fit into that ideal then.

Shia muslims have,amongst others, ie christians, yazadis and kurds, borne the brunt on fairly sectarian lines of death from ISIS within the "caliphate". I believe many kurds are sunni muslims.

To be more precise re shia muslims, the Saudi Arabian-originating salafist/wahhabi (IMO and generalising in many ways a pretty "extreme"/bonkers) strain of sunni islam (on which ISIS' ideology is at core based), regards shia muslims (about 15% of the world's muslims) as not proper muslims because of a schism about 1,400 years ago within Islam over who was the Prophet's true designated "successor" after his death.

Also,equally sectarian shia muslims (militarily "sponsored" by Iran and to whom the US has arguably turned a blind eye in recent times)have for some years embarked on killings in Iraq of sunni muslims,which helps sow the ground for a certain level of acceptance/tolerance of ISIS within the wider sunni community in the "caliphate". All of which marks the seeming possible end of what was for hundreds of years a relatively religiously pluralistic society,where christians (living in Iraq since ancient times) until recently generally were thought of/thought of themselves as Iraqi to the core since Iraq had been created,and where early Arab nationalists in Iraq defined the Jewish community in Iraq (which had also existed as a community in Iraq going back to ancient times) as Arabs.Under Saddam,the shia community (about 60-70% of the population) had,relatively speaking,been locked out of power vis a vis the sunnis,not to mention his use of chemical weapons against the kurds. The Jews,caught up as domestic pawns in the political aspects of the Iraqi-Israeli/Palestinian situation and the influence of nazi propaganda from the mid-1930's onwards, ceased to exist in a meaningful way as a community in Iraq over 60 years ago, and not from any general long-held desire on their part to go and live in Israel/Palestine.

So,I'm not sure any question of "how come ISIS kill a fellow-muslim",is anything new or out of the ordinary compared to their norm, and bearing in mind (with no judgement/justification attached but just as a fact)that the Jordanian guy had presumably been on a mission to bomb (ie likely kill) some of them.

Edited by legaleagle (04 Feb 2015 11.32pm)

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