Wales and EU Vote
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jamiemartin721  Reading 04 Jul 16 4.44pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Well, if no decision will actually make a difference and none is better than another I guess we can get rid of the Treasury and Parliament then, which would save us from all this distraction. Those aren't democratically run institutions though, they have a minister, but largely are functionally not run according to the vote of the people. When you scratch the surface, you'll find a lot of experts with specialist knowledge and experience, not the general public. Their curse, is that they have to try to make 'the will of the people' work (or at least the will of the party seeking to be re-elected). MPs aren't really in control, the civil service is, Parliament steers the ship, and the public are the paying passengers who book the destination.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 04 Jul 16 6.10pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I regard my self as something of a c**t, but not a nasty c**t. Whilst I'd regard myself as a bit of a clever c**t as well, but a generous and well meaning c**t in the most. So, in summary..... you're a c*nt.
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 Slimey Toad  Karsiyaka, North Cyprus 04 Jul 16 8.37pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I regard my self as something of a c**t, but not a nasty c**t. Whilst I'd regard myself as a bit of a clever c**t as well, but a generous and well meaning c**t in the most. It's all 'c' word with you isn't Jimbo? Personally I'm a tw@t, and this forum is my support group. Thanks guys.
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DaiShwmae  04 Jul 16 9.43pm |
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If it weren't for the EU and their open borders, stuff like this wouldn't happen To make sense of why Wales voted out it's probably worth looking at the demography of Wales. There's about 650k English-born living in Wales(can't blame 'em)...now you'd have to ask each and every one of them their views and do a separate survey of them, but the ones I know, met and talked to about the EU were sick to death of what was happening in various parts of England, and moved to Wales for a variety of grievances that they blame on Government and the EU. Also, a lot of these chaps moving in from England are older retiring folk. With it being proven that the older you are the more likely to vote leave you were, this might at least partly explain why Wales voted out. Almost all Welsh farmers I and an agricultural consultant pal know, absolutely hate the EU. I don't know the details why but it was something to do with policies and regulation that I had little interest in. One other issue would be sovereignty, since there was no devolution when the EU formed and begun expanding into areas other than trade, once we leave the EU all of the Home Nations will be as independent as they've been for a long time(I include England in that cos of English Votes for English Laws). Also, in Wales, any governing body that isn't directly elected by the populace isn't going to have much credence....for obvious reasons. And, the way the EU spends cash in Wales has already been mentioned here. Just a little fact, to make a difference in the result and change it in favour of Remain, Wales would have had to have voted at 87% in favour of remain. I should say I was completely 50/50 on how to vote in the referendum, as was the missus, so we split our vote as neither of us could make up our minds.
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SloveniaDave  Tirana, Albania 04 Jul 16 9.46pm |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Very honest and fair of you to admit that Dave. Never underestimate the ingenuity of the European Commission to build their Empire - I have seen it first hand for the last 25 years! Politicians come and go, the bureaucrats generally stay. Think of it like 'Yes, Minister'. The Commission has a longer term gameplan which will almost always out-manoeuvre the 'here today, gone tomorrow' politicians. But every power the Commission has, was given to them by the Council, so who is really to blame and who can solve it? The problem now is that they are not 'faceless bureaucrats' - that would not be so bad. But a fundamental error was made when the Members decided to appoint 'politicians' to the senior posts (President and Commissioners). But that problem is soluble - Merkel is already threatening to remove Junker and there is a movement to de-politicize and rein in the Commission. That is what we should support. Apologies for hi-jacking the Welsh thread but I am now desperately trying to confirm that my grandmother was born in Swansea.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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| Mapletree Croydon 04 Jul 16 10.20pm |
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Originally posted by DaiShwmae
If it weren't for the EU and their open borders, stuff like this wouldn't happen To make sense of why Wales voted out it's probably worth looking at the demography of Wales. There's about 650k English-born living in Wales(can't blame 'em)...now you'd have to ask each and every one of them their views and do a separate survey of them, but the ones I know, met and talked to about the EU were sick to death of what was happening in various parts of England, and moved to Wales for a variety of grievances that they blame on Government and the EU. Also, a lot of these chaps moving in from England are older retiring folk. With it being proven that the older you are the more likely to vote leave you were, this might at least partly explain why Wales voted out. Almost all Welsh farmers I and an agricultural consultant pal know, absolutely hate the EU. I don't know the details why but it was something to do with policies and regulation that I had little interest in. One other issue would be sovereignty, since there was no devolution when the EU formed and begun expanding into areas other than trade, once we leave the EU all of the Home Nations will be as independent as they've been for a long time(I include England in that cos of English Votes for English Laws). Also, in Wales, any governing body that isn't directly elected by the populace isn't going to have much credence....for obvious reasons. And, the way the EU spends cash in Wales has already been mentioned here. Just a little fact, to make a difference in the result and change it in favour of Remain, Wales would have had to have voted at 87% in favour of remain. I should say I was completely 50/50 on how to vote in the referendum, as was the missus, so we split our vote as neither of us could make up our minds. Thanks, useful insight AshTree is rather keen on farming and specifically sheep farming in the Beacons. Never happier than having her arm up to the elbow in some poor unsuspecting ewe. She tells me there is much debate amongst the farming community which was highly divided about the EU. In her opinion the Remains just about edged it.
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| DaiShwmae 04 Jul 16 11.07pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Thanks, useful insight AshTree is rather keen on farming and specifically sheep farming in the Beacons. Never happier than having her arm up to the elbow in some poor unsuspecting ewe. She tells me there is much debate amongst the farming community which was highly divided about the EU. In her opinion the Remains just about edged it. Yep, I'd imagine there were regions that were more 50/50 on the EU than others, as with the general populace. In West Wales the farmers I knew of were generally sick of the EU, and there are a lot of small farms around here which would contribute to the leave numbers. My consultant friend did mention to me that it was something like 8 in 10 against EU amongst the farmers he spoke to. Then again, his firm is funded by the EU, so maybe they just thought he was a crap consultant.(not really, he's good fair play to him)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Jul 16 9.36am |
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Originally posted by DaiShwmae
If it weren't for the EU and their open borders, stuff like this wouldn't happen To make sense of why Wales voted out it's probably worth looking at the demography of Wales. There's about 650k English-born living in Wales(can't blame 'em)...now you'd have to ask each and every one of them their views and do a separate survey of them, but the ones I know, met and talked to about the EU were sick to death of what was happening in various parts of England, and moved to Wales for a variety of grievances that they blame on Government and the EU. Also, a lot of these chaps moving in from England are older retiring folk. With it being proven that the older you are the more likely to vote leave you were, this might at least partly explain why Wales voted out. Almost all Welsh farmers I and an agricultural consultant pal know, absolutely hate the EU. I don't know the details why but it was something to do with policies and regulation that I had little interest in. One other issue would be sovereignty, since there was no devolution when the EU formed and begun expanding into areas other than trade, once we leave the EU all of the Home Nations will be as independent as they've been for a long time(I include England in that cos of English Votes for English Laws). Also, in Wales, any governing body that isn't directly elected by the populace isn't going to have much credence....for obvious reasons. And, the way the EU spends cash in Wales has already been mentioned here. Just a little fact, to make a difference in the result and change it in favour of Remain, Wales would have had to have voted at 87% in favour of remain. I should say I was completely 50/50 on how to vote in the referendum, as was the missus, so we split our vote as neither of us could make up our minds. Not true. The home nations are not independent, they're part of the Union. By default to be independent, they would require self rule, with separation from the UK parliament, which is predominately determined by English voters.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| DaiShwmae 05 Jul 16 10.21am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Not true. The home nations are not independent, they're part of the Union. By default to be independent, they would require self rule, with separation from the UK parliament, which is predominately determined by English voters. I did say "Home Nations will be as independent as they've been for a long time"...and never said they're fully independent.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Jul 16 11.01am |
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Originally posted by DaiShwmae
I did say "Home Nations will be as independent as they've been for a long time"...and never said they're fully independent. True, but then the same could be said of the UK in the EU, being a founder member and force in the formation of a great European body. Even if its been the 'uneasy member' its been in for nearly two generations and of course the UK is more independent of the EU, than the home nations are of the UK parliament (The UK even retains veto rights). That's not to say that I support the EU, I don't in its current form and believe its capacity should not be beyond trade and ensuring the rights for its citizens (both against state authority and capital influence such as corporate interests).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| silvertop Portishead 05 Jul 16 11.51am |
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Originally posted by DaiShwmae
If it weren't for the EU and their open borders, stuff like this wouldn't happen To make sense of why Wales voted out it's probably worth looking at the demography of Wales. There's about 650k English-born living in Wales(can't blame 'em)...now you'd have to ask each and every one of them their views and do a separate survey of them, but the ones I know, met and talked to about the EU were sick to death of what was happening in various parts of England, and moved to Wales for a variety of grievances that they blame on Government and the EU. Also, a lot of these chaps moving in from England are older retiring folk. With it being proven that the older you are the more likely to vote leave you were, this might at least partly explain why Wales voted out. Almost all Welsh farmers I and an agricultural consultant pal know, absolutely hate the EU. I don't know the details why but it was something to do with policies and regulation that I had little interest in. One other issue would be sovereignty, since there was no devolution when the EU formed and begun expanding into areas other than trade, once we leave the EU all of the Home Nations will be as independent as they've been for a long time(I include England in that cos of English Votes for English Laws). Also, in Wales, any governing body that isn't directly elected by the populace isn't going to have much credence....for obvious reasons. And, the way the EU spends cash in Wales has already been mentioned here. Just a little fact, to make a difference in the result and change it in favour of Remain, Wales would have had to have voted at 87% in favour of remain. I should say I was completely 50/50 on how to vote in the referendum, as was the missus, so we split our vote as neither of us could make up our minds.
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| DaiShwmae 05 Jul 16 12.18pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
True, but then the same could be said of the UK in the EU, being a founder member and force in the formation of a great European body. Even if its been the 'uneasy member' its been in for nearly two generations and of course the UK is more independent of the EU, than the home nations are of the UK parliament (The UK even retains veto rights). That's not to say that I support the EU, I don't in its current form and believe its capacity should not be beyond trade and ensuring the rights for its citizens (both against state authority and capital influence such as corporate interests). Yep, can't really argue with the first paragraph. One further point in terms of Wales(and the UK for that matter) and sovereignty, if the EU had their Presidents directly elected by the populations of Europe, Remain would have been much closer to winning this referendum. No idea what they were thinking of when they decided to have them elected in the way they do. Totally agree with the second paragraph as well, very well put.
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