Is this racist?
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 Na hEireann Iolar  London 10 Sep 16 9.12pm |
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I'm amazed by the number of conspiracy theorists on here fretting about the lefties somehow interfering with their free speech. If you look at the reality, the majority of UK media veers towards right wing views and hence we get multiple anti-immigrant stories, scary black man stories (e.g The Sun on Frank Bruno) and drumming up fear of crime items. All that the decent posters are saying is have some respect for others and don't label people by their skin colour. If that interferes with your right to free speech best get back in your bunker before the New World Order come calling.
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| matt_himself Matataland 10 Sep 16 9.50pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
matt_hypocrite Answer my question, rather than dish out lame insults, Michael.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Kermit8  Hevon 10 Sep 16 10.09pm |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Answer my question, rather than dish out lame insults, Michael. The question? Oh, yeah. The same as you have directly.
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| matt_himself Matataland 10 Sep 16 10.16pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
The question? Oh, yeah. The same as you have directly. No you haven't. You don't live in a multicultural area, you don't work or socialise with people from other cultures and you are not in a relationship with a person from another culture. Yours and mine experience is polarised and, in my opinion, you don't have any grounds to tell others how they should think about about multiculturalism when you have purposefully removed yourself from multicultural society.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| blackpalacefan 10 Sep 16 10.50pm |
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There is an interesting symbiotic relationship between one group who form 'the PC crowd' and look to be offended, and another who fixate on 'you just can't say anything nowadays' and 'thought police' ideas partially because they primarily only spot differences not similarities in groups of people and engage in relentless commentary ranging from stupid to awful that really only ever seeks to lessen or pick apart minorities. Thankfully most people don't really fully fall within either cliched group. In short, of course people looking for offense will find it - the extremes in the BLK movement for instance, because that's their goal or a symptom of damage they've endured. It doesn't further their cause in any way. In actual fact it makes a mockery of real examples of prejudice. Many in BLM do a laudable job, but some elements and almost all SJWs actually attack fairly liberal individuals who 'said the wrong thing', because they're easy pickings who won't fight back. They don't confront real bigotry because that involves hard work and bigots fight back even if rationality isn't on their side. It'll be stupid crap like attacking Justin Timberlake for 'cultural appropriation' in music, even though he's clearly not racist in any way. It's a failing of some on the left that this bullying behaviour isn't called out. Equally those looking to offend, or at least looking to able to say comments that are consciously or otherwise a power play, a 'im the majority and deserve the loudest say' 'its pc gone mad' daily mantra, will perpetually find themselves in hot water because they dream of a level of unfettered control and domination over others that simply will never be given a total free pass no matter the era we're in. If someone always seems to have 'something contrary to say' about race, religion, disability, sexuality, the whole gambit, generally they're not 'fighting the good fight against pc' they're just expressing their own dislike or fear of difference and keeping the mantra up to avoid acknowledging the damage their own behaviour causes to those around them. Ignorance is bliss.
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| blackpalacefan 10 Sep 16 11.22pm |
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Originally posted by snytaxx
Yes this is racist - thats an easy question. The real question should be "why would the Chinese think and write this?". Calling someone a racist in China, although a big deal, doesn't really hold the same meaning or gravity as it does in the West. While many in the West will happily dish out the phrase 'you're a racist' to anyone who dares to disagree with practically any left wing view on immigration and multiculturalism, in China, calling someone a racist is quite a rare thing to happen. Although obviously a bad thing to be associated with, it's bad for other reasons and so the ways it's used is different. Speak to any Chinese person living in the West and they will tell you they have long been the victims of racism, they'd be right, Chinese and other Asian groups have in the past been exploited, colonised, degraded and treated badly by other groups of people. When encountering racism in Western countries, most Chinese people will just think "oh what a complete idiot that person / organisation is - they clearly need more education". Unlike a westerner who'd probably feel the need to contact their local newspaper / MP and whinge about the whole issue on social media. Couple the idea of 'racism is bad but i'll get over it' with how forthright many Chinese people are and just how susceptible they are what they see on the media and through in some ignorance plus the fact that China is a 'non-immigration country' and you have a perfect recipe for what many people in the West would regard as racism. When in reality, well educated Chinese people would just say, the statement that 'Indian, pakistani and Black areas are dangerous is probably inaccurate. This information should be changed to make it more accurate' A clear example of this can be found in this advert released here in China a few months ago: When this advert was launched, literally none of the media outlets, nor Chinese social media gave a damn. Every Chinese person I showed this to just said 'it's a silly advert, this washing tablet clearly won't be able to make someones racial ethnicity change'. It wasn't until the Western media and the likes of twitter and Facebook caught on, and the company started receiving floods of angry messages from people outside of China saying how terribly racist the advert was that the company withdrew it and gave a really half-arsed apology which essentially was implying Westerners should 'get over themselves'. So yes, to answer some questions, 'The Wings of China' magazine did say something quite racist. Chinese people probably know it's racist, and no. They probably don't awfully care as there are lots of places in London with high black populations which are dangerous (not because the people are black, but because black people proportionally are more likely to be living closer to the poverty line, and poor areas tend to be more dangerous). So most Chinese tourists don't care that the advice is wrong on a technicality, as long as it's trying to help people avoid the less safer areas of London. Thanks for reading! Edited by snytaxx (09 Sep 2016 3.59pm) Chinese society I agree is blunt and as a result more thick skinned and 'give and take'. 'I'll do what I want and you do what you want'. I can see some sense to that. Let's not forget the extremes of how self serving and self interested that can become though. The 'my life', 'your business is not my business' mindset seeps through to daily life in ways that helps no-one. The number of chinese videos online of people getting run over and tens of people just walking on by even though they've seen what happened is rather disturbing and unlike anything you will see in most areas of the world with such frequency. It's a known phenomenon way beyond the 'bystander effect'. Society does exist and behaviour towards others, even if some don't or claim not to care about how others behave towards them, can still have a very negative impact. As for the advert, yes the western response may have been a bit over the top, but let's not pretend the chinese response is a preferable approach. Part of the reason they didn't care about the video is because in China very often black people are seen as somewhere between 'dirty' and a 'curiosity'. Hence the theme of the advert. Of course many won't care about that, because it's about keeping people down rather than a 'PC' issue. Edited by blackpalacefan (11 Sep 2016 2.41am)
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| snytaxx London 11 Sep 16 5.13am |
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Originally posted by blackpalacefan
Chinese society I agree is blunt and as a result more thick skinned and 'give and take'. 'I'll do what I want and you do what you want'. I can see some sense to that. Let's not forget the extremes of how self serving and self interested that can become though. The 'my life', 'your business is not my business' mindset seeps through to daily life in ways that helps no-one. The number of chinese videos online of people getting run over and tens of people just walking on by even though they've seen what happened is rather disturbing and unlike anything you will see in most areas of the world with such frequency. It's a known phenomenon way beyond the 'bystander effect'. Society does exist and behaviour towards others, even if some don't or claim not to care about how others behave towards them, can still have a very negative impact. As for the advert, yes the western response may have been a bit over the top, but let's not pretend the chinese response is a preferable approach. Part of the reason they didn't care about the video is because in China very often black people are seen as somewhere between 'dirty' and a 'curiosity'. Hence the theme of the advert. Of course many won't care about that, because it's about keeping people down rather than a 'PC' issue. Edited by blackpalacefan (11 Sep 2016 2.41am) I agree with elements of what you are saying, but I have to disagree with some of the highlighted, and I shall explain why. You bring up the 'numerous' videos of Chinese people not helping people. You are right to say its a problem, however your reasoning behind it is a little off in my opinion. Chinese people I believe are no different from Westerners in their willingness to help and their warm heartedness. Infact in some areas of life I'd say Chinese people are even more generous due to the 'face concept'. Back to my point, China has in recent years experienced an ageing population made worse by the one child policy. As the population gets older, and with almost no state care to help the elderly, it has not been uncommon for some people in China to 'fake' accidents. When someone then leaps to their aid, the 'victim' then tells the police that it was the helper who caused the accident and they then demand (lifetime) compensation. There have been many high profile cases in China where some people have accused people of 'hurting them' and using the resources of the poor 'good samaritan' to leech out an existence in relative comfort . This problem is made worse by the governments tendency to always come down on the side 'victim' especially when its a case of 'his / her word against mine'. Kind of like how a judge will always lean towards the mother in a family divorce case. Chinese society's response to this small (but sizeable) problem is to just leave people alone unless you are 100% convinced they can't turn around and blame you. It's not just a Chinese thing, the same happens in India (I can provide links if required). The thought process is, "this is really bad, but I can't risk the lawsuit - sorry!". Things are changing however, the government launched a 'back to basics' campaign a few years back 'educating people' to be careful about possibly fraudulent cases, but to help as much as possible. However, old habits die hard particular in less clear cut cases! I don't just tell you want I read in the news or on Chinese social media either. Last month, I was cycling along a relatively quiet Beijing street, when a taxi tried to overtake me and knocked me off my bike while I was doing about 15 - 20 mph (he was doing about 40mph). Not only did pedestrians from quite some distance away come running over while I was laying in the road (in shock) to help. But people who probably hadn't even witnessed the accident began diverting traffic, calling the police, an ambulance and preventing the taxi driver from making a hasty exit by standing in front of this car and demanding he got out. Someone was even doing his best to put the chain back on my bike while I was mediating with the taxi driver. Anyway enough about me. Back to the issue of the Chinese treatment of black people. Firstly, many Chinese people have never even seen a black person in real life as the black population in China tends to be concentrated in downtown urban areas, so many people base what they think of Africans and other black people from what the government tells them via its news outlets. Sadly, much of the publicity surrounding Africa and black people isn't good. In an attempt to play politics with the USA and many other Western countries, the Chinese government have inadvertently demonised alot of black people in a similar way which the Western media has. During the Black lives matter protest in Ferguson two years ago. State media ran a whole newspaper spread for 4 days straight along the lines of "America really isn't that great, it can be really dangerous, better stay in the China, we love our ethnic minorities here - hooray for social harmony!". While China tries to score cheap points against the West, it does alot of damage to the image of foreigners to many Chinese people who quite simply, don't know any better. Thanks for reading.
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| blackpalacefan 11 Sep 16 6.00am |
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Originally posted by snytaxx
I agree with elements of what you are saying, but I have to disagree with some of the highlighted, and I shall explain why. You bring up the 'numerous' videos of Chinese people not helping people. You are right to say its a problem, however your reasoning behind it is a little off in my opinion. Chinese people I believe are no different from Westerners in their willingness to help and their warm heartedness. Infact in some areas of life I'd say Chinese people are even more generous due to the 'face concept'. Back to my point, China has in recent years experienced an ageing population made worse by the one child policy. As the population gets older, and with almost no state care to help the elderly, it has not been uncommon for some people in China to 'fake' accidents. When someone then leaps to their aid, the 'victim' then tells the police that it was the helper who caused the accident and they then demand (lifetime) compensation. There have been many high profile cases in China where some people have accused people of 'hurting them' and using the resources of the poor 'good samaritan' to leech out an existence in relative comfort . This problem is made worse by the governments tendency to always come down on the side 'victim' especially when its a case of 'his / her word against mine'. Kind of like how a judge will always lean towards the mother in a family divorce case. Chinese society's response to this small (but sizeable) problem is to just leave people alone unless you are 100% convinced they can't turn around and blame you. It's not just a Chinese thing, the same happens in India (I can provide links if required). The thought process is, "this is really bad, but I can't risk the lawsuit - sorry!". Things are changing however, the government launched a 'back to basics' campaign a few years back 'educating people' to be careful about possibly fraudulent cases, but to help as much as possible. However, old habits die hard particular in less clear cut cases! I don't just tell you want I read in the news or on Chinese social media either. Last month, I was cycling along a relatively quiet Beijing street, when a taxi tried to overtake me and knocked me off my bike while I was doing about 15 - 20 mph (he was doing about 40mph). Not only did pedestrians from quite some distance away come running over while I was laying in the road (in shock) to help. But people who probably hadn't even witnessed the accident began diverting traffic, calling the police, an ambulance and preventing the taxi driver from making a hasty exit by standing in front of this car and demanding he got out. Someone was even doing his best to put the chain back on my bike while I was mediating with the taxi driver. Anyway enough about me. Back to the issue of the Chinese treatment of black people. Firstly, many Chinese people have never even seen a black person in real life as the black population in China tends to be concentrated in downtown urban areas, so many people base what they think of Africans and other black people from what the government tells them via its news outlets. Sadly, much of the publicity surrounding Africa and black people isn't good. In an attempt to play politics with the USA and many other Western countries, the Chinese government have inadvertently demonised alot of black people in a similar way which the Western media has. During the Black lives matter protest in Ferguson two years ago. State media ran a whole newspaper spread for 4 days straight along the lines of "America really isn't that great, it can be really dangerous, better stay in the China, we love our ethnic minorities here - hooray for social harmony!". While China tries to score cheap points against the West, it does alot of damage to the image of foreigners to many Chinese people who quite simply, don't know any better. Thanks for reading. Thanks for the amazingly thorough and thoughtful reply. It's certainly food for thought with regard to how fear of helping may be one facet of what's going on. I agree on the origins of the racial issues. I tend to seperate out ignorance where there is a lack of understanding and ignorance where there is pure bigotry. As you say the former is a big factor in China due to the abscense of other races and how that void is filled by the state.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 11 Sep 16 5.31pm |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
No you haven't. You don't live in a multicultural area, you don't work or socialise with people from other cultures and you are not in a relationship with a person from another culture. Yours and mine experience is polarised and, in my opinion, you don't have any grounds to tell others how they should think about about multiculturalism when you have purposefully removed yourself from multicultural society. You are correct with one and incorrect with two. Not bad. Keep up the improvement.
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 11 Sep 16 6.46pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
matt_hypocrite But there is one standard for matt_hypocrite and one for those who disagree with him. Ironically, very Animal Farm considering.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| matt_himself Matataland 11 Sep 16 7.57pm |
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Originally posted by pefwin
But there is one standard for matt_hypocrite and one for those who disagree with him. Ironically, very Animal Farm considering. And in your mind, why is me correcting your incorrect account of the Falklands War, 'trolling', and the above not 'trolling'? You are also a hypocrite. I have left you alone after your last meltdown. I politely ask that you do the same to me.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 11 Sep 16 9.58pm |
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Originally posted by pefwin
But there is one standard for matt_hypocrite and one for those who disagree with him. Ironically, very Animal Farm considering. Good call. There is something very thought police and Stalin-like about our Matthew. For example, he keeps trying to censor me on threads about multi-culturalism even though i lived in London for forty years Ah, well.
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