It's all gone quite on the left

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hedgehog50 Croydon 05 Aug 17 6.45pm
Back to my original post, Corbyn said: “Venezuela is an inspiration to all of us, fighting back against austerity and neoliberal economics in Europe showed us there is a different, and better way of doing things. It’s called socialism, it’s called social justice, and it is something Venezuela has made a big step towards.” After some years of 'Socialism' it is now in chaos with people starving, having no medical care and being shot on the streets. The opposition are being arrested and imprisoned and the government is giving authoritarian powers to itself. This in a country that has the world’s largest supply of crude oil. What is the left's response? That it is all the fault of the wicked Yankees and that not enough Socialism has been implemented. Corbyn says nothing about the abject failure of Socialism in Venezuela - does he still want to employ the same economic approach in the UK should he ever come to power. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 05 Aug 17 6.45pm

Back to my original post, Corbyn said: “Venezuela is an inspiration to all of us, fighting back against austerity and neoliberal economics in Europe showed us there is a different, and better way of doing things. It’s called socialism, it’s called social justice, and it is something Venezuela has made a big step towards.”
After some years of 'Socialism' it is now in chaos with people starving, having no medical care and being shot on the streets. The opposition are being arrested and imprisoned and the government is giving authoritarian powers to itself. This in a country that has the world’s largest supply of crude oil.
What is the left's response? That it is all the fault of the wicked Yankees and that not enough Socialism has been implemented.
Corbyn says nothing about the abject failure of Socialism in Venezuela - does he still want to employ the same economic approach in the UK should he ever come to power.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 05 Aug 17 7.14pm
Originally posted by nickgusset A bit of a read, but some analysis of Maduro and the opposition. A lot of background perspective too. [Link] "Perspective"! At it's conclusion the article states "Venezuela is at a critical moment. There are various possible perspectives, and a living changing struggle will decide which prevails. US imperialism, backed by EU imperialism has gone further in its offensive than at any time since the 2002 coup. Their objective is to force a division in the military leadership and provoke a coup against Maduro, opening the way for the MUD to take power." and "the current crisis in Venezuela is not because of the failure of 'socialism' but because of the lack of a real socialist revolution!". Do you seriously believe this cr*p? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 05 Aug 17 7.14pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

A bit of a read, but some analysis of Maduro and the opposition. A lot of background perspective too.

[Link]

"Perspective"!
At it's conclusion the article states "Venezuela is at a critical moment. There are various possible perspectives, and a living changing struggle will decide which prevails. US imperialism, backed by EU imperialism has gone further in its offensive than at any time since the 2002 coup. Their objective is to force a division in the military leadership and provoke a coup against Maduro, opening the way for the MUD to take power." and "the current crisis in Venezuela is not because of the failure of 'socialism' but because of the lack of a real socialist revolution!".
Do you seriously believe this cr*p?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 05 Aug 17 7.50pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Back to my original post, Corbyn said: “Venezuela is an inspiration to all of us, fighting back against austerity and neoliberal economics in Europe showed us there is a different, and better way of doing things. It’s called socialism, it’s called social justice, and it is something Venezuela has made a big step towards.” After some years of 'Socialism' it is now in chaos with people starving, having no medical care and being shot on the streets. The opposition are being arrested and imprisoned and the government is giving authoritarian powers to itself. This in a country that has the world’s largest supply of crude oil. What is the left's response? That it is all the fault of the wicked Yankees and that not enough Socialism has been implemented. Corbyn says nothing about the abject failure of Socialism in Venezuela - does he still want to employ the same economic approach in the UK should he ever come to power. By 'back to my original post', what you really meant was 'back to my over-simplified summary of a hugely complex tragedy which I can use to bash the lefties' The way you perceive 'left v right' is so scary to read.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 05 Aug 17 7.50pm

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Originally posted by hedgehog50

By 'back to my original post', what you really meant was 'back to my over-simplified summary of a hugely complex tragedy which I can use to bash the lefties'

The way you perceive 'left v right' is so scary to read.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 05 Aug 17 11.58pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow By 'back to my original post', what you really meant was 'back to my over-simplified summary of a hugely complex tragedy which I can use to bash the lefties' The way you perceive 'left v right' is so scary to read. What is scary is that someone who aspires to become UK Prime Minister praises the lunatic goings on in Venezuela. Why can't the left see what is in front of their noses? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 05 Aug 17 11.58pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

By 'back to my original post', what you really meant was 'back to my over-simplified summary of a hugely complex tragedy which I can use to bash the lefties'

The way you perceive 'left v right' is so scary to read.

What is scary is that someone who aspires to become UK Prime Minister praises the lunatic goings on in Venezuela. Why can't the left see what is in front of their noses?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 06 Aug 17 1.55am
Originally posted by hedgehog50 What is scary is that someone who aspires to become UK Prime Minister praises the lunatic goings on in Venezuela. Why can't the left see what is in front of their noses? He's praising the gangs in a quote from 4 years ago? That's not even remotely true. Again to the 'left' - that sort of 'us vs them' mentality is a huge factor in why our political system has been so unsuccessful in recent years.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 06 Aug 17 1.55am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

What is scary is that someone who aspires to become UK Prime Minister praises the lunatic goings on in Venezuela. Why can't the left see what is in front of their noses?

He's praising the gangs in a quote from 4 years ago? That's not even remotely true.

Again to the 'left' - that sort of 'us vs them' mentality is a huge factor in why our political system has been so unsuccessful in recent years.

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Stirlingsays Online 06 Aug 17 3.01am
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow He's praising the gangs in a quote from 4 years ago? That's not even remotely true. Again to the 'left' - that sort of 'us vs them' mentality is a huge factor in why our political system has been so unsuccessful in recent years. What? How on earth could party systems work otherwise? What are you suggesting would be a better system? I have a rudimentary idea of one but it probably wouldn't work.....What are you suggesting improves on the adversarial party system that makes sense? Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 3.03am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

06 Aug 17 3.01am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

He's praising the gangs in a quote from 4 years ago? That's not even remotely true.

Again to the 'left' - that sort of 'us vs them' mentality is a huge factor in why our political system has been so unsuccessful in recent years.

What?

How on earth could party systems work otherwise? What are you suggesting would be a better system?

I have a rudimentary idea of one but it probably wouldn't work.....What are you suggesting improves on the adversarial party system that makes sense?

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 3.03am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 06 Aug 17 8.27am
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow He's praising the gangs in a quote from 4 years ago? That's not even remotely true. Again to the 'left' - that sort of 'us vs them' mentality is a huge factor in why our political system has been so unsuccessful in recent years. My general point really is that Corbyn and his like live in a theoretical wonderland where their policies work whereas in the real world the same policies are repeatedly seen to fail. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 06 Aug 17 8.27am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

He's praising the gangs in a quote from 4 years ago? That's not even remotely true.

Again to the 'left' - that sort of 'us vs them' mentality is a huge factor in why our political system has been so unsuccessful in recent years.

My general point really is that Corbyn and his like live in a theoretical wonderland where their policies work whereas in the real world the same policies are repeatedly seen to fail.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Stirlingsays Online 06 Aug 17 9.03am
Originally posted by hedgehog50 My general point really is that Corbyn and his like live in a theoretical wonderland where their policies work whereas in the real world the same policies are repeatedly seen to fail. Yep, and Corbyn is dangerous because what he believes in and what he could get through into the Labour manifesto are two different things. I will say that there were a couple of good ideas within Labour's manifesto that I would at least like to be convinced are flawed before I took against them....like the co-op bank idea and ending zero hours contracts...though I'd probably look to restrict rather than end. But the methods of raising money for the spending commitments was just 'head in the clouds' disconnected from the reality of what would happen to the economy the moment they won an election. It's true that some of the Tory's nationalizations have been pretty poor for the consumer but Labour's manifesto nationalizations are just completely unrealistic......Perhaps as some broad long term aim....But the manifesto reads like a down trodden tramp's bucket list items of things they would like to do on Mars. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 9.42am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

06 Aug 17 9.03am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

My general point really is that Corbyn and his like live in a theoretical wonderland where their policies work whereas in the real world the same policies are repeatedly seen to fail.

Yep, and Corbyn is dangerous because what he believes in and what he could get through into the Labour manifesto are two different things.

I will say that there were a couple of good ideas within Labour's manifesto that I would at least like to be convinced are flawed before I took against them....like the co-op bank idea and ending zero hours contracts...though I'd probably look to restrict rather than end.

But the methods of raising money for the spending commitments was just 'head in the clouds' disconnected from the reality of what would happen to the economy the moment they won an election.

It's true that some of the Tory's nationalizations have been pretty poor for the consumer but Labour's manifesto nationalizations are just completely unrealistic......Perhaps as some broad long term aim....But the manifesto reads like a down trodden tramp's bucket list items of things they would like to do on Mars.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 9.42am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays Online 06 Aug 17 10.42am
You kind of get the impression that some left wing voices literally are going quiet, perhaps deliberately so. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

06 Aug 17 10.42am

You kind of get the impression that some left wing voices literally are going quiet, perhaps deliberately so.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 06 Aug 17 2.57pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays What? How on earth could party systems work otherwise? What are you suggesting would be a better system? I have a rudimentary idea of one but it probably wouldn't work.....What are you suggesting improves on the adversarial party system that makes sense? Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 3.03am) I'm not suggesting a better system, but I'm suggesting that people look at incidents such as this a little more flexibly than 'left v right' - your following post is a fair example of this. An adversarial party system is fine, but there are too many examples of people far too entrenched in their 'side' that they fail to acknowledge any positives of the other. Simplifying what is happening in Venezuela to 'Corbyn's politics don't work' is ridiculous.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 06 Aug 17 2.57pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

What?

How on earth could party systems work otherwise? What are you suggesting would be a better system?

I have a rudimentary idea of one but it probably wouldn't work.....What are you suggesting improves on the adversarial party system that makes sense?

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 3.03am)

I'm not suggesting a better system, but I'm suggesting that people look at incidents such as this a little more flexibly than 'left v right' - your following post is a fair example of this.

An adversarial party system is fine, but there are too many examples of people far too entrenched in their 'side' that they fail to acknowledge any positives of the other.

Simplifying what is happening in Venezuela to 'Corbyn's politics don't work' is ridiculous.

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JRW2 Dulwich 06 Aug 17 3.19pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Yep, and Corbyn is dangerous because what he believes in and what he could get through into the Labour manifesto are two different things. I will say that there were a couple of good ideas within Labour's manifesto that I would at least like to be convinced are flawed before I took against them....like the co-op bank idea and ending zero hours contracts...though I'd probably look to restrict rather than end. But the methods of raising money for the spending commitments was just 'head in the clouds' disconnected from the reality of what would happen to the economy the moment they won an election. It's true that some of the Tory's nationalizations have been pretty poor for the consumer but Labour's manifesto nationalizations are just completely unrealistic......Perhaps as some broad long term aim....But the manifesto reads like a down trodden tramp's bucket list items of things they would like to do on Mars. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 9.42am) Blimey, how much convincing do you need? It's four years since the Co-op Bank almost went bust and only a week or so since the despised hedge funds had to inject another huge sum to try and keep the thing going.
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JRW2

Dulwich 06 Aug 17 3.19pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yep, and Corbyn is dangerous because what he believes in and what he could get through into the Labour manifesto are two different things.

I will say that there were a couple of good ideas within Labour's manifesto that I would at least like to be convinced are flawed before I took against them....like the co-op bank idea and ending zero hours contracts...though I'd probably look to restrict rather than end.

But the methods of raising money for the spending commitments was just 'head in the clouds' disconnected from the reality of what would happen to the economy the moment they won an election.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Aug 2017 9.42am)

Blimey, how much convincing do you need? It's four years since the Co-op Bank almost went bust and only a week or so since the despised hedge funds had to inject another huge sum to try and keep the thing going.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 06 Aug 17 3.28pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays You kind of get the impression that some left wing voices literally are going quiet, perhaps deliberately so. I get the impression that the fact there is more than one side to the current situation and that there are many who fail to acknowledge this.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 06 Aug 17 3.28pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You kind of get the impression that some left wing voices literally are going quiet, perhaps deliberately so.

I get the impression that the fact there is more than one side to the current situation and that there are many who fail to acknowledge this.

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