Confederate Flag

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adrian b Landrindod, Wales 12 Jul 14 3.04pm
Quote grump at 12 Jul 2014 8.50am Well I will continue to display the Southern Cross along with the St George Cross and Union Jack. If people interpret this as a sign I am a racist then I'm afraid that is their problem not mine. Unfortunately narrow minded people will always make stupid assumptions. Grump, the connotations of the Confederate flag are not assumptions. If you assume it is just a pretty blue and red flag, then your assumption is wrong. If people then assume this flag flown at Selhurst means the club is OK with the attitudes this flag represents, then the loss is Palace's: are you happy? Being a person concerned with the wealth of our club I can't see how you can be.
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adrian b

Landrindod, Wales 12 Jul 14 3.04pm

Quote grump at 12 Jul 2014 8.50am

Well I will continue to display the Southern Cross along with the St George Cross and Union Jack. If people interpret this as a sign I am a racist then I'm afraid that is their problem not mine. Unfortunately narrow minded people will always make stupid assumptions.

Grump, the connotations of the Confederate flag are not assumptions. If you assume it is just a pretty blue and red flag, then your assumption is wrong. If people then assume this flag flown at Selhurst means the club is OK with the attitudes this flag represents, then the loss is Palace's: are you happy? Being a person concerned with the wealth of our club I can't see how you can be.

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NickinOX Sailing country. 12 Jul 14 3.53pm
Anyone who thinks this has nothing to do with slavery should read the constitution of the Confederate States. [Link] See: Article 1 Section 9 clause 4; article 4 section 2 clause 1; article 4 section 3 clause 3. These guarantee the right to own slaves. They also guarantee that a slaveowner can take his 'property' anywhere without risk of seizure, and they guarantee any new states joining the confederacy must allow slaveowners to travel without risk of the seizure of their slaves. Thus, this guaranteed a slave owning society even if the confederacy expanded. It's the one main theme separating this from the original US Constitution. As for the argument that the average southerner was not a slave owner so the war wasn't about slavery, well neither was the average German a Nazi! Edited by NickinOX (12 Jul 2014 3.53pm) If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
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NickinOX

Sailing country. 12 Jul 14 3.53pm

Anyone who thinks this has nothing to do with slavery should read the constitution of the Confederate States.

[Link]

See: Article 1 Section 9 clause 4; article 4 section 2 clause 1; article 4 section 3 clause 3.

These guarantee the right to own slaves. They also guarantee that a slaveowner can take his 'property' anywhere without risk of seizure, and they guarantee any new states joining the confederacy must allow slaveowners to travel without risk of the seizure of their slaves. Thus, this guaranteed a slave owning society even if the confederacy expanded. It's the one main theme separating this from the original US Constitution.

As for the argument that the average southerner was not a slave owner so the war wasn't about slavery, well neither was the average German a Nazi!

Edited by NickinOX (12 Jul 2014 3.53pm)

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Mapletree Croydon 12 Jul 14 4.49pm
Quote Happiness Stan at 12 Jul 2014 9.43am Bin it and get a Tibetan one innit. Red and blue and looks great. Tho doubtless some people would start s***ting the bed about affecting shirt sales in china [Link] Took one to Wemberly last year cos it looked cool (and was cheap)
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Mapletree

Croydon 12 Jul 14 4.49pm

Quote Happiness Stan at 12 Jul 2014 9.43am

Bin it and get a Tibetan one innit. Red and blue and looks great. Tho doubtless some people would start s***ting the bed about affecting shirt sales in china

[Link]

Took one to Wemberly last year cos it looked cool (and was cheap)

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c_block_shedevil London 13 Jul 14 5.21pm
Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest? The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist? I'm tough. I'm ambitious. I know exactly what I want. If that makes me a bitch, I'm OK with that.
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c_block_shedevil

London 13 Jul 14 5.21pm

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Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest?

The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist?

I'm tough. I'm ambitious. I know exactly what I want. If that makes me a bitch, I'm OK with that.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jul 14 5.44pm
Quote grump at 12 Jul 2014 8.50am Well I will continue to display the Southern Cross along with the St George Cross and Union Jack. If people interpret this as a sign I am a racist then I'm afraid that is their problem not mine. Unfortunately narrow minded people will always make stupid assumptions. Interesting combination, the Southern Cross mostly appears on Australian and New Zealand flags. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Jul 14 5.44pm

Quote grump at 12 Jul 2014 8.50am

Well I will continue to display the Southern Cross along with the St George Cross and Union Jack. If people interpret this as a sign I am a racist then I'm afraid that is their problem not mine. Unfortunately narrow minded people will always make stupid assumptions.

Interesting combination, the Southern Cross mostly appears on Australian and New Zealand flags.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jul 14 5.51pm
Quote c_block_shedevil at 13 Jul 2014 5.21pm Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest? The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist? It's often used as a rebel symbol in the US, as well as an unofficial southern states flag. Problem is its association not just with slavery in the civil war, but it was used by groups like the KKK and as part of the anti-desegregation campaign in the US, and still has a very strong relationship with US hate groups, such as Neo-Nazism. Its kind of like a Swastika it generally doesn't mean what most people think, but its not going to go down very well with people. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Jul 14 5.51pm

Quote c_block_shedevil at 13 Jul 2014 5.21pm

Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest?

The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist?

It's often used as a rebel symbol in the US, as well as an unofficial southern states flag. Problem is its association not just with slavery in the civil war, but it was used by groups like the KKK and as part of the anti-desegregation campaign in the US, and still has a very strong relationship with US hate groups, such as Neo-Nazism.

Its kind of like a Swastika it generally doesn't mean what most people think, but its not going to go down very well with people.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 13 Jul 14 5.52pm
Quote c_block_shedevil at 13 Jul 2014 5.21pm Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest? The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist? Nope. The confederate flag on its own is no proof of that. It carries other meanings as well.....It's how the person uses it. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 5.53pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Jul 14 5.52pm

Quote c_block_shedevil at 13 Jul 2014 5.21pm

Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest?

The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist?

Nope.

The confederate flag on its own is no proof of that. It carries other meanings as well.....It's how the person uses it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 5.53pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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NickinOX Sailing country. 13 Jul 14 6.06pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 5.52pm Quote c_block_shedevil at 13 Jul 2014 5.21pm Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest? The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist? Nope. The confederate flag on its own is no proof of that. It carries other meanings as well.....It's how the person uses it. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 5.53pm) The problem for the flag is similar to that of the swastika. For example, Finland used it during WW2 and it had nothing to do with them fighting alongside Nazi Germany. They just happened to use the same symbol. There are some hippies who wear a swastika "to reclaim it" from it's evil past. I doubt their ideology calls for the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies, etc. But the swastika on their t-shirt screams Nazi. The average person is probably ignorant of the direct link the Confederate flag has to slavery and racism. Mind you, I've met quite a few who are aware of the link but think it's cool. Sort of like rich people and pictures of Stalin or Che. How rad! If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
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NickinOX

Sailing country. 13 Jul 14 6.06pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 5.52pm

Quote c_block_shedevil at 13 Jul 2014 5.21pm

Isn't the confederate flag used in the 'rebel' context rather than racist slave owners like some here suggest?

The flag has been used on many singers album and promotional material. Does that mean they are racist?

Nope.

The confederate flag on its own is no proof of that. It carries other meanings as well.....It's how the person uses it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 5.53pm)

The problem for the flag is similar to that of the swastika. For example, Finland used it during WW2 and it had nothing to do with them fighting alongside Nazi Germany. They just happened to use the same symbol. There are some hippies who wear a swastika "to reclaim it" from it's evil past. I doubt their ideology calls for the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies, etc. But the swastika on their t-shirt screams Nazi.

The average person is probably ignorant of the direct link the Confederate flag has to slavery and racism. Mind you, I've met quite a few who are aware of the link but think it's cool. Sort of like rich people and pictures of Stalin or Che. How rad!

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Stirlingsays 13 Jul 14 6.15pm
Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.06pm The problem for the flag is similar to that of the swastika. For example, Finland used it during WW2 and it had nothing to do with them fighting alongside Nazi Germany. They just happened to use the same symbol. There are some hippies who wear a swastika "to reclaim it" from it's evil past. I doubt their ideology calls for the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies, etc. But the swastika on their t-shirt screams Nazi. The average person is probably ignorant of the direct link the Confederate flag has to slavery and racism. Mind you, I've met quite a few who are aware of the link but think it's cool. Sort of like rich people and pictures of Stalin or Che. How rad! What the average person thinks matters little really. None of us can control what others think. If people want to make the wrong assumptions about others based upon symbols that they are partly ignorant about then that's their problem and less the issue for the individual. All they need do is ask. It's like someone getting a tatto and others thinking they are a thug. It's an assumption....It needs more input until you know. As an aside I saw something on telly last year about a black southerner who walks around his state on weekends with the Confederate flag for exactly the reason that he wants to alter perceptions. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 6.15pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Jul 14 6.15pm

Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.06pm

What the average person thinks matters little really. None of us can control what others think. If people want to make the wrong assumptions about others based upon symbols that they are partly ignorant about then that's their problem and less the issue for the individual.

All they need do is ask.

It's like someone getting a tatto and others thinking they are a thug. It's an assumption....It needs more input until you know.

As an aside I saw something on telly last year about a black southerner who walks around his state on weekends with the Confederate flag for exactly the reason that he wants to alter perceptions.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 6.15pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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NickinOX Sailing country. 13 Jul 14 6.33pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 6.15pm Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.06pm The problem for the flag is similar to that of the swastika. For example, Finland used it during WW2 and it had nothing to do with them fighting alongside Nazi Germany. They just happened to use the same symbol. There are some hippies who wear a swastika "to reclaim it" from it's evil past. I doubt their ideology calls for the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies, etc. But the swastika on their t-shirt screams Nazi. The average person is probably ignorant of the direct link the Confederate flag has to slavery and racism. Mind you, I've met quite a few who are aware of the link but think it's cool. Sort of like rich people and pictures of Stalin or Che. How rad! What the average person thinks matters little really. None of us can control what others think. If people want to make the wrong assumptions about others based upon symbols that they are partly ignorant about then that's their problem and less the issue for the individual. All they need do is ask. It's like someone getting a tatto and others thinking they are a thug. It's an assumption....It needs more input until you know. As an aside I saw something on telly last year about a black southerner who walks around his state on weekends with the Confederate flag for exactly the reason that he wants to alter perceptions. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 6.15pm) Let me be clear. I'm not offended by it. But, in the US it's become a hot potato issue largely due to its association with Jim Crow southern states. I certainly wouldn't want it flying above the state house because of this. But if an individual wants to display it, good luck to them. These days, we seem far too quick to take offense. If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
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NickinOX

Sailing country. 13 Jul 14 6.33pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 6.15pm

Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.06pm

All they need do is ask.

It's like someone getting a tatto and others thinking they are a thug. It's an assumption....It needs more input until you know.

As an aside I saw something on telly last year about a black southerner who walks around his state on weekends with the Confederate flag for exactly the reason that he wants to alter perceptions.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 6.15pm)

Let me be clear. I'm not offended by it. But, in the US it's become a hot potato issue largely due to its association with Jim Crow southern states. I certainly wouldn't want it flying above the state house because of this. But if an individual wants to display it, good luck to them.

These days, we seem far too quick to take offense.

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Stirlingsays 13 Jul 14 6.44pm
Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.33pm Let me be clear. I'm not offended by it. But, in the US it's become a hot potato issue largely due to its association with Jim Crow southern states. I certainly wouldn't want it flying above the state house because of this. But if an individual wants to display it, good luck to them. These days, we seem far too quick to take offense. I agree. Some people who use it will be racists of course and/or just want the 'shock' value.......But it also has other contexts, anti establishment/state independence/personal independence and so on. I didn't like the period we are just coming out of in this country where if you waved the St George some ignorants thought you were a racist or member of a far right organization. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Jul 14 6.44pm

Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.33pm

These days, we seem far too quick to take offense.

I agree.

Some people who use it will be racists of course and/or just want the 'shock' value.......But it also has other contexts, anti establishment/state independence/personal independence and so on.

I didn't like the period we are just coming out of in this country where if you waved the St George some ignorants thought you were a racist or member of a far right organization.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jul 14 6.54pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 6.15pm Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.06pm The problem for the flag is similar to that of the swastika. For example, Finland used it during WW2 and it had nothing to do with them fighting alongside Nazi Germany. They just happened to use the same symbol. There are some hippies who wear a swastika "to reclaim it" from it's evil past. I doubt their ideology calls for the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies, etc. But the swastika on their t-shirt screams Nazi. The average person is probably ignorant of the direct link the Confederate flag has to slavery and racism. Mind you, I've met quite a few who are aware of the link but think it's cool. Sort of like rich people and pictures of Stalin or Che. How rad! What the average person thinks matters little really. None of us can control what others think. If people want to make the wrong assumptions about others based upon symbols that they are partly ignorant about then that's their problem and less the issue for the individual. All they need do is ask. It's like someone getting a tatto and others thinking they are a thug. It's an assumption....It needs more input until you know. As an aside I saw something on telly last year about a black southerner who walks around his state on weekends with the Confederate flag for exactly the reason that he wants to alter perceptions. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 6.15pm) Yeah but you also shouldn't be surprised if people get really f**ked off either - Its a symbol, and symbols have profound effects on people. Its a shame because its one of the most beautiful flags ever produced. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Jul 14 6.54pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 6.15pm

Quote NickinOX at 13 Jul 2014 6.06pm

All they need do is ask.

It's like someone getting a tatto and others thinking they are a thug. It's an assumption....It needs more input until you know.

As an aside I saw something on telly last year about a black southerner who walks around his state on weekends with the Confederate flag for exactly the reason that he wants to alter perceptions.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 6.15pm)

Yeah but you also shouldn't be surprised if people get really f**ked off either - Its a symbol, and symbols have profound effects on people. Its a shame because its one of the most beautiful flags ever produced.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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