Confederate Flag

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legaleagle 14 Jul 14 9.10am
I think what is undeniable is that the way a majority of people (in the USA and worldwide) view that flag, is as a symbol of white supremacy/slavery. That doesn't mean every single person but the majority. You wrote in an earlier post about people today in the south in the USA using it as an anti-federal symbol. But, there is a reason for this. The flag came out of anti-federalism, from opposition to the federal government seeking to impose anti-slavery measures on the southern states. From my own travels in Louisiana/Alabama/Mississippi, I'd say it hasn't lost too much of its original symbolism there even in recent years. I saw the flag at Selhurst. Can't remember the game but seem to remember it was not unadjacent to the Holmesdale? Personally, I'd rather never see it at the ground again. I would hope the owner/s would (whatever their personal motives were for using it) not want to do it again out of recognition of the way the symbolism of the flag is generally interpreted.
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legaleagle

14 Jul 14 9.10am

I think what is undeniable is that the way a majority of people (in the USA and worldwide) view that flag, is as a symbol of white supremacy/slavery. That doesn't mean every single person but the majority. You wrote in an earlier post about people today in the south in the USA using it as an anti-federal symbol. But, there is a reason for this. The flag came out of anti-federalism, from opposition to the federal government seeking to impose anti-slavery measures on the southern states.

From my own travels in Louisiana/Alabama/Mississippi, I'd say it hasn't lost too much of its original symbolism there even in recent years.

I saw the flag at Selhurst. Can't remember the game but seem to remember it was not unadjacent to the Holmesdale?

Personally, I'd rather never see it at the ground again. I would hope the owner/s would (whatever their personal motives were for using it) not want to do it again out of recognition of the way the symbolism of the flag is generally interpreted.

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Stirlingsays 14 Jul 14 9.42am
Quote legaleagle at 14 Jul 2014 9.10am I think what is undeniable is that the way a majority of people (in the USA and worldwide) view that flag, is as a symbol of white supremacy/slavery. That doesn't mean every single person but the majority. You wrote in an earlier post about people today in the south in the USA using it as an anti-federal symbol. But, there is a reason for this. The flag came out of anti-federalism, from opposition to the federal government seeking to impose anti-slavery measures on the southern states. From my own travels in Louisiana/Alabama/Mississippi, I'd say it hasn't lost too much of its original symbolism there even in recent years. I saw the flag at Selhurst. Can't remember the game but seem to remember it was not unadjacent to the Holmesdale? Personally, I'd rather never see it at the ground again. I would hope the owner/s would (whatever their personal motives were for using it) not want to do it again out of recognition of the way the symbolism of the flag is generally interpreted. It's true that the confederate flag has connections to slavery. It also has connections to these other areas I've written about. People can choose to ignore them but I don't see why those who feel these things have to fit in with them. It isn't true that everyone who uses it wishes to support slavery by any means and there are lots of instances where this can be checked out. People need to be a little less black and white (no obvious jokes please) and have more tolerance.....Or at least ask the person first. If they did wish to insult then I think that would be a case for removal. Intent matters. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 9.44am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jul 14 9.42am

Quote legaleagle at 14 Jul 2014 9.10am

From my own travels in Louisiana/Alabama/Mississippi, I'd say it hasn't lost too much of its original symbolism there even in recent years.

I saw the flag at Selhurst. Can't remember the game but seem to remember it was not unadjacent to the Holmesdale?

It's true that the confederate flag has connections to slavery. It also has connections to these other areas I've written about. People can choose to ignore them but I don't see why those who feel these things have to fit in with them.

It isn't true that everyone who uses it wishes to support slavery by any means and there are lots of instances where this can be checked out.

People need to be a little less black and white (no obvious jokes please) and have more tolerance.....Or at least ask the person first.

If they did wish to insult then I think that would be a case for removal. Intent matters.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 9.44am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jul 14 10.09am
Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 9.42am Quote legaleagle at 14 Jul 2014 9.10am I think what is undeniable is that the way a majority of people (in the USA and worldwide) view that flag, is as a symbol of white supremacy/slavery. That doesn't mean every single person but the majority. You wrote in an earlier post about people today in the south in the USA using it as an anti-federal symbol. But, there is a reason for this. The flag came out of anti-federalism, from opposition to the federal government seeking to impose anti-slavery measures on the southern states. From my own travels in Louisiana/Alabama/Mississippi, I'd say it hasn't lost too much of its original symbolism there even in recent years. I saw the flag at Selhurst. Can't remember the game but seem to remember it was not unadjacent to the Holmesdale? Personally, I'd rather never see it at the ground again. I would hope the owner/s would (whatever their personal motives were for using it) not want to do it again out of recognition of the way the symbolism of the flag is generally interpreted. It's true that the confederate flag has connections to slavery. It also has connections to these other areas I've written about. People can choose to ignore them but I don't see why those who feel these things have to fit in with them. It isn't true that everyone who uses it wishes to support slavery by any means and there are lots of instances where this can be checked out. People need to be a little less black and white (no obvious jokes please) and have more tolerance.....Or at least ask the person first. If they did wish to insult then I think that would be a case for removal. Intent matters. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 9.44am) In the US, its associations to slavery aren't really the problem, its much more its association with far right groups such as KKK and those groups who supported the anti-civil rights movements. Its re-adoption in the 1960s by some of the States, particularly Georgia, that were resistant to the reforms for civil rights has led to a greater controversy in the later half of the 20th century. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jul 14 10.09am

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 9.42am

Quote legaleagle at 14 Jul 2014 9.10am

From my own travels in Louisiana/Alabama/Mississippi, I'd say it hasn't lost too much of its original symbolism there even in recent years.

I saw the flag at Selhurst. Can't remember the game but seem to remember it was not unadjacent to the Holmesdale?

It isn't true that everyone who uses it wishes to support slavery by any means and there are lots of instances where this can be checked out.

People need to be a little less black and white (no obvious jokes please) and have more tolerance.....Or at least ask the person first.

If they did wish to insult then I think that would be a case for removal. Intent matters.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 9.44am)

In the US, its associations to slavery aren't really the problem, its much more its association with far right groups such as KKK and those groups who supported the anti-civil rights movements. Its re-adoption in the 1960s by some of the States, particularly Georgia, that were resistant to the reforms for civil rights has led to a greater controversy in the later half of the 20th century.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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adrian b Landrindod, Wales 14 Jul 14 11.12am
Golly. It's really very simple. Don't worry about the history, intent, configuration or any other connotation of the flag (not actually the Southern Cross-that's a costellation on the Oz flag). It's a matter of whether anyone on here thinks it's worth upsetting a large number of people associated with our beloved club by flying the damn thing. It would and it does.
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adrian b

Landrindod, Wales 14 Jul 14 11.12am

Golly. It's really very simple. Don't worry about the history, intent, configuration or any other connotation of the flag (not actually the Southern Cross-that's a costellation on the Oz flag). It's a matter of whether anyone on here thinks it's worth upsetting a large number of people associated with our beloved club by flying the damn thing. It would and it does.

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Stirlingsays 14 Jul 14 1.07pm
Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 11.12am Golly. It's really very simple. Don't worry about the history, intent, configuration or any other connotation of the flag (not actually the Southern Cross-that's a costellation on the Oz flag). It's a matter of whether anyone on here thinks it's worth upsetting a large number of people associated with our beloved club by flying the damn thing. It would and it does. Maybe we should start a hunt for the flag waver. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jul 14 1.07pm

Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 11.12am

Maybe we should start a hunt for the flag waver.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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goodersgold Hastings 14 Jul 14 1.09pm
I'm offended just in case others are The world was a mess but his hair was perfect!
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goodersgold

Hastings 14 Jul 14 1.09pm

I'm offended just in case others are

The world was a mess but his hair was perfect!

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Mapletree Croydon 14 Jul 14 1.28pm
I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on. It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk. Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude.... Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm)
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Mapletree

Croydon 14 Jul 14 1.28pm

I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on.

It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk.

Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude....

Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm)

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grump Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.21pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 10.47pm Quote Lombardos barber at 13 Jul 2014 8.33pm Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 7.20pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jul 2014 6.54pm Yeah but you also shouldn't be surprised if people get really f**ked off either - Its a symbol, and symbols have profound effects on people. Its a shame because its one of the most beautiful flags ever produced. People have the right to be offended but not the right to deny a person to express (within reason).....Whatever it is they are expressing. If someone believes in a southern state independence for example the confederate flag could be a good symbol for that. It would of course help if those using a 'controversial' flag also made it clear what they stand for. What a ridiculous comment from someone with no knowledge of history. Im not a fan of liberals and generally am far from PC but that flag has such appalling conotations that it shouldnt be glossed over as a "personal choice" issue. Is it a fair one to wave a Swastika if, along the lines of what you said, someone believed in a Austria German union but wasnt really a fan of the Holocaust? As someone who has served alongside many Americans, there is a lot of denial over how bad the lot of Black people was in the US, especially during the time of slavery. We should not welcome that kind of symbolism at Selhurst. Millwall, Chelsea, Leeds, Rangers etc can have it. Edited by Lombardos barber (13 Jul 2014 8.34pm) Oh dear. Yeah, no knowledge of history mate. Strange how I've taught the subject in schools isn't it. Did you read the series of posts? Or is your knee jerking? The Swastika doesn't represent a German/Austria union by the way. It represents either the Nazis, modern far right groups by chosen association or as an ancient symbol sometimes used by several different cultures. The WW2 union between German and Austria is not its purpose. That is an action the Nazis took, not the purpose of the flag. The confederate flag does represent a union of southern states.....That's its original meaning and purpose. As that union was defeated in the civil war its usage by people now falls under several different guises. So your analogy is wrong.....In fact it's quite annoying. The confederate flag has been used by people who aren't racists and by those that are....It is down to context. The fact that some people can't move away from its association with slavery is their problem. Britain practiced slavery under the union jack flag.....Should we associate that? Oh and the Dutch flag and so on. It's a sodding flag....And people use it to mean what they want it to mean......A lot of Americans in the south use it to distance themselves from the US government. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 10.53pm) Thankyou Stirling for making your point so eloquently, it is precisely the point I have been trying to get across. Anyone who see's the confederate flag purely as a symbol of racism, is, in my opinion more dangerous than the racists themselves because at least a racist knows what his hatred is aimed at. Stay out the way of the Southern thing.
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grump

Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.21pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 10.47pm

Quote Lombardos barber at 13 Jul 2014 8.33pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jul 2014 7.20pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jul 2014 6.54pm

Yeah but you also shouldn't be surprised if people get really f**ked off either - Its a symbol, and symbols have profound effects on people. Its a shame because its one of the most beautiful flags ever produced.

People have the right to be offended but not the right to deny a person to express (within reason).....Whatever it is they are expressing.

If someone believes in a southern state independence for example the confederate flag could be a good symbol for that.

It would of course help if those using a 'controversial' flag also made it clear what they stand for.

What a ridiculous comment from someone with no knowledge of history.

Im not a fan of liberals and generally am far from PC but that flag has such appalling conotations that it shouldnt be glossed over as a "personal choice" issue.

Is it a fair one to wave a Swastika if, along the lines of what you said, someone believed in a Austria German union but wasnt really a fan of the Holocaust?

As someone who has served alongside many Americans, there is a lot of denial over how bad the lot of Black people was in the US, especially during the time of slavery.

We should not welcome that kind of symbolism at Selhurst. Millwall, Chelsea, Leeds, Rangers etc can have it.

Edited by Lombardos barber (13 Jul 2014 8.34pm)

Oh dear.

Yeah, no knowledge of history mate. Strange how I've taught the subject in schools isn't it.

Did you read the series of posts? Or is your knee jerking?

The Swastika doesn't represent a German/Austria union by the way. It represents either the Nazis, modern far right groups by chosen association or as an ancient symbol sometimes used by several different cultures. The WW2 union between German and Austria is not its purpose.

That is an action the Nazis took, not the purpose of the flag.

The confederate flag does represent a union of southern states.....That's its original meaning and purpose. As that union was defeated in the civil war its usage by people now falls under several different guises.

So your analogy is wrong.....In fact it's quite annoying.

The confederate flag has been used by people who aren't racists and by those that are....It is down to context. The fact that some people can't move away from its association with slavery is their problem.

Britain practiced slavery under the union jack flag.....Should we associate that? Oh and the Dutch flag and so on.

It's a sodding flag....And people use it to mean what they want it to mean......A lot of Americans in the south use it to distance themselves from the US government.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2014 10.53pm)

Thankyou Stirling for making your point so eloquently, it is precisely the point I have been trying to get across. Anyone who see's the confederate flag purely as a symbol of racism, is, in my opinion more dangerous than the racists themselves because at least a racist knows what his hatred is aimed at.

Stay out the way of the Southern thing.

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grump Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.24pm
Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on. It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk. Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude.... Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm) Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well. Stay out the way of the Southern thing.
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grump

Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.24pm

Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm

I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on.

Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude....

Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm)

Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well.

Stay out the way of the Southern thing.

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doublesuited77 London (Camden) 14 Jul 14 2.30pm
Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on. It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk. Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude.... Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm) Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well. It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included. I remember a few years back, someone was flying a National Front flag in the Holmesdale. During the 2nd match, I saw the flag, it was removed since we dont want to be linked to racist extremist groups. I think the same logic should apply here. Be Loud, Be Proud, Be Palace
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doublesuited77

London (Camden) 14 Jul 14 2.30pm

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Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm

Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm

I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on.

Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude....

Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm)

Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well.

It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included.

I remember a few years back, someone was flying a National Front flag in the Holmesdale. During the 2nd match, I saw the flag, it was removed since we dont want to be linked to racist extremist groups. I think the same logic should apply here.

Be Loud, Be Proud, Be Palace

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grump Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.51pm
Talking about history Attachment: rebel-flag.jpg (54.12Kb) Stay out the way of the Southern thing.
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grump

Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.51pm

Talking about history

Attachment: rebel-flag.jpg (54.12Kb)

Stay out the way of the Southern thing.

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grump Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.56pm
I think the Union Jack is a far greater symbol of racism than the confederate southern cross. Stay out the way of the Southern thing.
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grump

Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 2.56pm

I think the Union Jack is a far greater symbol of racism than the confederate southern cross.

Stay out the way of the Southern thing.

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