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 Seth  On a pale blue dot 03 Aug 14 5.52pm |
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Hamas' charter is just a bargaining chip. Like the ANC or IRA renouncing violence, Hamas will dispose of their non-recognition of Israel when they feel they are getting something in return. Israel knows this but uses it as an excuse to continue its murderous policies.
"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" |
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Stirlingsays  03 Aug 14 7.20pm |
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Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 5.52pm
Hamas' charter is just a bargaining chip. Like the ANC or IRA renouncing violence, Hamas will dispose of their non-recognition of Israel when they feel they are getting something in return. Israel knows this but uses it as an excuse to continue its murderous policies.
Hamas are a funded resistance movement by Iran and Suad/private backers.....It isn't in their interests to accept peace.....It's similar to the Likud party. If in the unlikely situation where we got back to something like camp david in 93 I'm quite sure both 'right' wings on the Palestinian and Israeli sides would be opposing peace. Indeed the moderates would have to 'win' the peace on both sides.....Not a problem so much in Israel but the moderates...Which I suppose would be the pragmatic elements in Fatah are pretty weak now amongst the Palestinians.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Seth On a pale blue dot 03 Aug 14 7.29pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 7.20pm
Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 5.52pm
Hamas' charter is just a bargaining chip. Like the ANC or IRA renouncing violence, Hamas will dispose of their non-recognition of Israel when they feel they are getting something in return. Israel knows this but uses it as an excuse to continue its murderous policies.
Hamas are a funded resistance movement by Iran and Suad/private backers.....It isn't in their interests to accept peace.....It's similar to the Likud party. If in the unlikely situation where we got back to something like camp david in 93 I'm quite sure both 'right' wings on the Palestinian and Israeli sides would be opposing peace. Indeed the moderates would have to 'win' the peace on both sides.....Not a problem so much in Israel but the moderates...Which I suppose would be the pragmatic elements in Fatah are pretty weak now amongst the Palestinians.
The Gazans only voted for Hamas out of desperation. They have nothing to lose, which is the main problem. Give them something to lose and they'll vote for more moderate leaders. Israel has created the situation where Hamas is the voice of Gaza and I believe they want this as it suits their wider aim of controlling all of the land from the river to the sea. It's called divide and rule and Israel does it very effectively. EDIT: This thread is meant to be about ISIS anyway. There's already a thread for Israel/Palestine and it's not this one, so I won't be discussing that issue here any more. Edited by Seth (03 Aug 2014 7.31pm)
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| legaleagle 03 Aug 14 7.35pm |
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I think the Palestinians and Israelis will make a deal one day and there will be a "final" two state solution. HAMAS, as an entity deeply rooted in a particular religious ideology I'm not so sure about, and whether it would be the government of an independent Palestine, is more questionable. Growing out of Muslim Brotherhood ideology, they subscribe to a particular strain of Wahhabi Islam that sees the present conflict not essentially as a nationalist struggle, but rather something predicted by the Prophet, like the extermination eventually of the Jews in an apocalypse-like final chapter, and the pre-eminence in the whole region of "true" Islam as something pre-ordained by Allah. Reading the whole charter gives a taste of this. Even in a two-state solution, their ideology would alienate the many secular and Christian Palestinians. Its an interesting question, similar to whether ISIS would evolve into a democratic government in Iraq; in ISIS' case, I think not, and the reasons why are worth thinking about in both contexts. Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.36pm) Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.37pm) Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.42pm)
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| legaleagle 03 Aug 14 7.50pm |
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Anyway, getting back to the actual subject of the thread...
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 03 Aug 14 7.50pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 7.35pm
I think the Palestinians and Israelis will make a deal one day and there will be a "final" two state solution. HAMAS, as an entity deeply rooted in a particular religious ideology I'm not so sure about, and whether it would be the government of an independent Palestine, is more questionable. Growing out of Muslim Brotherhood ideology, they subscribe to a particular strain of Wahhabi Islam that sees the present conflict not essentially as a nationalist struggle, but rather something predicted by the Prophet, like the extermination eventually of the Jews in an apocalypse-like final chapter, and the pre-eminence in the whole region of "true" Islam as something pre-ordained by Allah. Reading the whole charter gives a taste of this. Even in a two-state solution, their ideology would alienate the many secular and Christian Palestinians. Its an interesting question, similar to whether ISIS would evolve into a democratic government in Iraq; in ISIS' case, I think not, and the reasons why are worth thinking about in both contexts. Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.36pm) Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.37pm) Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.42pm)
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| legaleagle 03 Aug 14 7.51pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 03 Aug 2014 7.50pm
Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 7.35pm
I think the Palestinians and Israelis will make a deal one day and there will be a "final" two state solution. HAMAS, as an entity deeply rooted in a particular religious ideology I'm not so sure about, and whether it would be the government of an independent Palestine, is more questionable. Growing out of Muslim Brotherhood ideology, they subscribe to a particular strain of Wahhabi Islam that sees the present conflict not essentially as a nationalist struggle, but rather something predicted by the Prophet, like the extermination eventually of the Jews in an apocalypse-like final chapter, and the pre-eminence in the whole region of "true" Islam as something pre-ordained by Allah. Reading the whole charter gives a taste of this. Even in a two-state solution, their ideology would alienate the many secular and Christian Palestinians. Its an interesting question, similar to whether ISIS would evolve into a democratic government in Iraq; in ISIS' case, I think not, and the reasons why are worth thinking about in both contexts. Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.36pm) Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.37pm) Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 7.42pm)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 03 Aug 14 7.54pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 7.50pm
Anyway, getting back to the actual subject of the thread...
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| legaleagle 03 Aug 14 7.56pm |
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I think one reason they got out was the weight of domestic opinion wanting them to do so asap, the same opinion (larger by then) that had wished they had never gone in...
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| Dougiecito In a dreamworld 03 Aug 14 7.59pm |
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Is it really all to do with sibling rivalry? Two brothers falling out? Why don't the media just stop reporting on it and giving help to the propaganda? Imagine if every day, on the news, they said it was raining in Manchester. It'd be a lil bit irritating, wouldn't it?
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| Dougiecito In a dreamworld 03 Aug 14 8.01pm |
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Quote Dougiecito at 03 Aug 2014 7.59pm
Is it really all to do with sibling rivalry? Two brothers falling out? Why don't the media just stop reporting on it and giving help to the propaganda? Imagine if every day, on the news, they said it was raining in Manchester. It'd be a lil bit irritating, wouldn't it?
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Jimenez  SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 03 Aug 14 8.58pm |
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I don't know what the political difficulties would be or logistics or for that matter the legal ramifications (know doubt legaleagle will tell me
Pro USA & Israel |
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