isis

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legaleagle 03 Sep 14 9.08am
Human rights are not divisible, depending on whether the side you support is breaching them or your opponent. So, it is noteworthy that in contrast to the estimated 30,000 or so who were perfectly reasonably demonstrating weekly recently in London (and many thousands more in France and Germany etc) against Israel's inappropriate actions in Gaza, some of those demonstrators appear on the face of it somewhat less stirred by ISIS' disgusting actions. However, to jump from that to suggesting the "left" is somehow generally at fault or a majority of Muslims in the UK support ISIS's ideology, is way OTT. Viz the Fatwah issued a few days ago by some Islamic scholars here against ISIS. [Link] We are plainly dealing with something that is a virulent, nasty ideology with somewhat more than zero ideological support here. The link below is suggestive of potential chemical attacks... [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.11am)
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legaleagle

03 Sep 14 9.08am

Human rights are not divisible, depending on whether the side you support is breaching them or your opponent.

So, it is noteworthy that in contrast to the estimated 30,000 or so who were perfectly reasonably demonstrating weekly recently in London (and many thousands more in France and Germany etc) against Israel's inappropriate actions in Gaza, some of those demonstrators appear on the face of it somewhat less stirred by ISIS' disgusting actions.

However, to jump from that to suggesting the "left" is somehow generally at fault or a majority of Muslims in the UK support ISIS's ideology, is way OTT. Viz the Fatwah issued a few days ago by some Islamic scholars here against ISIS.

[Link]

We are plainly dealing with something that is a virulent, nasty ideology with somewhat more than zero ideological support here.

The link below is suggestive of potential chemical attacks...

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.11am)

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Kermit8 Hevon 03 Sep 14 9.10am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.28am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'. That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew. Really? I think that if, as is made out in the liberal media and by pandering apologists, that the Muslim community is regularly 'appalled' by these acts violence, surely they would do something to highlight and show their disgust against Muslim extremist violence to the wider World. It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings. I fully expect that in Kermit World, I am demonstrating ignorance and will be told this soon, but won't really be given and explanation of why it is ignorance. Just told it is with a patronising and empty put down. Which particular Muslim community are you referring to? The Sufis? The secular? The ones who don't believe in Allah/God? The ones who do but live a peaceful, quiet, family life? The London Turkish? The Kurds? Bosniaks? A Maldivian waiters' convention? What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us? And how can you be a Muslim if you don't believe in Allah? Cultural identity/religious crossover perhaps? Like being Polish Catholic, American Jewish. They don't all have the faith . Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 03 Sep 14 9.10am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.28am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am

I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'.

That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew.

Really? I think that if, as is made out in the liberal media and by pandering apologists, that the Muslim community is regularly 'appalled' by these acts violence, surely they would do something to highlight and show their disgust against Muslim extremist violence to the wider World.

It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings.

I fully expect that in Kermit World, I am demonstrating ignorance and will be told this soon, but won't really be given and explanation of why it is ignorance. Just told it is with a patronising and empty put down.

Which particular Muslim community are you referring to? The Sufis? The secular? The ones who don't believe in Allah/God? The ones who do but live a peaceful, quiet, family life? The London Turkish? The Kurds? Bosniaks? A Maldivian waiters' convention?

What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us?

And how can you be a Muslim if you don't believe in Allah?

Cultural identity/religious crossover perhaps? Like being Polish Catholic, American Jewish. They don't all have the faith .

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Sep 14 9.11am
Quote reborn at 03 Sep 2014 7.46am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'. That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew. Not really Kerm. Everyone is quick to protest and burn stuff when Jews are involved. When much bigger and more barbaric slaughter is committed by Muslims then theres just silence. Someone draws an innocuous cartoon in Denmark and half the worlds muslims are burning stuff. Muslims beheading other Muslims and Christians and its all very very quiet. When Israel is involved, not specifically Jews. I suspect that has a lot to do with the fact that the UK is a major supplier of Israel. There's also a US presence in the UK, which represents the major supplier of Israel's military capacity. IS doesn't really have much of a presence in the UK to protest, and aren't really supported by the UK or its allies. I'm not sure what they'd be protesting. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Sep 14 9.11am

Quote reborn at 03 Sep 2014 7.46am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am

That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew.

Not really Kerm. Everyone is quick to protest and burn stuff when Jews are involved. When much bigger and more barbaric slaughter is committed by Muslims then theres just silence.

Someone draws an innocuous cartoon in Denmark and half the worlds muslims are burning stuff. Muslims beheading other Muslims and Christians and its all very very quiet.

When Israel is involved, not specifically Jews. I suspect that has a lot to do with the fact that the UK is a major supplier of Israel. There's also a US presence in the UK, which represents the major supplier of Israel's military capacity.

IS doesn't really have much of a presence in the UK to protest, and aren't really supported by the UK or its allies. I'm not sure what they'd be protesting.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 03 Sep 14 9.14am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'. That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew. Really? I think that if, as is made out in the liberal media and by pandering apologists, that the Muslim community is regularly 'appalled' by these acts violence, surely they would do something to highlight and show their disgust against Muslim extremist violence to the wider World. It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings. I fully expect that in Kermit World, I am demonstrating ignorance and will be told this soon, but won't really be given and explanation of why it is ignorance. Just told it is with a patronising and empty put down. Which particular Muslim community are you referring to? The Sufis? The secular? The ones who don't believe in Allah/God? The ones who do but live a peaceful, quiet, family life? The London Turkish? The Kurds? Bosniaks? A Maldivian waiters' convention? What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us? We are constantly told by people like yourself that the majority of Muslims are peace loving and abhor violence made in the name of Islam. We are constantly told that Islam is a peace loving religion. Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world? Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer. Because they don't understand nor relate to them so feel, rightly, they have nothing to answer for, is the logical explanation. But you want to partly blame still for all the crap that is going on. Why is that, I wonder? Are all muslims guilty in your world? Edited by Kermit8 (03 Sep 2014 9.18am) Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 03 Sep 14 9.14am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am

That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew.

It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings.

What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us?

We are constantly told by people like yourself that the majority of Muslims are peace loving and abhor violence made in the name of Islam. We are constantly told that Islam is a peace loving religion.

Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world?

Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer.

Because they don't understand nor relate to them so feel, rightly, they have nothing to answer for, is the logical explanation. But you want to partly blame still for all the crap that is going on. Why is that, I wonder? Are all muslims guilty in your world?

Edited by Kermit8 (03 Sep 2014 9.18am)

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Sep 14 9.16am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.28am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'. That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew. Really? I think that if, as is made out in the liberal media and by pandering apologists, that the Muslim community is regularly 'appalled' by these acts violence, surely they would do something to highlight and show their disgust against Muslim extremist violence to the wider World. It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings. I fully expect that in Kermit World, I am demonstrating ignorance and will be told this soon, but won't really be given and explanation of why it is ignorance. Just told it is with a patronising and empty put down. Which particular Muslim community are you referring to? The Sufis? The secular? The ones who don't believe in Allah/God? The ones who do but live a peaceful, quiet, family life? The London Turkish? The Kurds? Bosniaks? A Maldivian waiters' convention? What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us? And how can you be a Muslim if you don't believe in Allah? I used to work with an athiest Persian Muslim. He adpoted many of the muslim practices without the adoption of prayer and faith, on moral grounds. Same way you can be Jewish without believing in YHWH. Technically you can argue that people are christian, if they have been baptised, even if they don't buy into it. Its just that were a lot less hardcore about that these days. Of course in earlier centuaries less so. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Sep 14 9.16am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.28am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am

That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew.

It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings.

What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us?

And how can you be a Muslim if you don't believe in Allah?

I used to work with an athiest Persian Muslim. He adpoted many of the muslim practices without the adoption of prayer and faith, on moral grounds.

Same way you can be Jewish without believing in YHWH. Technically you can argue that people are christian, if they have been baptised, even if they don't buy into it. Its just that were a lot less hardcore about that these days.

Of course in earlier centuaries less so.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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legaleagle 03 Sep 14 9.20am
Prima facie,it would seem many protested re Gaza because they perceived major human rights abuses being perpetrated in the Middle East against the Palestinians. We (the UK), through our misguided past policies of aiding and abetting jihadi groups when it suited us (viz Afghanistan in the late 80's) giving asylum to some pretty nasty characters in the 90's,and turning a blind eye to Saudi Wahhabi funding of pernicious textbooks etc being disseminated in mosques here, have a responsibility for creating a mind set that has resulted seemingly in a not insignificant number of young Muslims here being attracted to ISIS' ideology. If 500 plus go to fight, how many more empathise with those who have gone? So, for me, there is no simple "cop out" answer of saying Palestine is "different" because we supply weapons to Israel, as opposed to ISIS where we have no such involvement... Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.25am)
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legaleagle

03 Sep 14 9.20am

Prima facie,it would seem many protested re Gaza because they perceived major human rights abuses being perpetrated in the Middle East against the Palestinians.

We (the UK), through our misguided past policies of aiding and abetting jihadi groups when it suited us (viz Afghanistan in the late 80's) giving asylum to some pretty nasty characters in the 90's,and turning a blind eye to Saudi Wahhabi funding of pernicious textbooks etc being disseminated in mosques here, have a responsibility for creating a mind set that has resulted seemingly in a not insignificant number of young Muslims here being attracted to ISIS' ideology. If 500 plus go to fight, how many more empathise with those who have gone?

So, for me, there is no simple "cop out" answer of saying Palestine is "different" because we supply weapons to Israel, as opposed to ISIS where we have no such involvement...

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.25am)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Sep 14 9.21am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'. That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew. Really? I think that if, as is made out in the liberal media and by pandering apologists, that the Muslim community is regularly 'appalled' by these acts violence, surely they would do something to highlight and show their disgust against Muslim extremist violence to the wider World. It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings. I fully expect that in Kermit World, I am demonstrating ignorance and will be told this soon, but won't really be given and explanation of why it is ignorance. Just told it is with a patronising and empty put down. Which particular Muslim community are you referring to? The Sufis? The secular? The ones who don't believe in Allah/God? The ones who do but live a peaceful, quiet, family life? The London Turkish? The Kurds? Bosniaks? A Maldivian waiters' convention? What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us? We are constantly told by people like yourself that the majority of Muslims are peace loving and abhor violence made in the name of Islam. We are constantly told that Islam is a peace loving religion. Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world? Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer. Well a large number of them seem to be fighting them in Northern Iraq (Iraqi's, Farsi and Kurds). The expectation that those who have done nothing wrong will flood the baracades is a falisy. You don't see many christians protesting the oppression of gay people in the name of faith in Africa. Because its not their fault. Likewise you don't see many British people protesting against the occassional war crime in Iraq or Afghanistan. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Sep 14 9.21am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am

That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew.

It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings.

What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us?

Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world?

Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer.

Well a large number of them seem to be fighting them in Northern Iraq (Iraqi's, Farsi and Kurds). The expectation that those who have done nothing wrong will flood the baracades is a falisy. You don't see many christians protesting the oppression of gay people in the name of faith in Africa.

Because its not their fault. Likewise you don't see many British people protesting against the occassional war crime in Iraq or Afghanistan.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Sep 14 9.25am
Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.20am Prima facie,it would seem many protested re Gaza because they perceived major human rights abuses being perpetrated in the Middle East against the Palestinians. We (the UK), through our misguided past policies of aiding and abetting jihadi groups when it suited us (viz Afghanistan in the late 80's) giving asylum to some pretty nasty characters in the 90's,and turning a blind eye to Saudi Wahhabi funding of pernicious textbooks etc being disseminated in mosques here, have a responsibility for creating a mind set that has resulted seemingly in a not insignificant number of young Muslims her being attracted to ISIS' ideology. If 500 plus go to fight, how many more empathise with those who have gone? So, for me, there is no simple "cop out" answer of saying Palestine is "different" because we supply weapons to Israel, as opposed to ISIS where we have no such involvement... Whilst I do mostly agree with this, I would say there is a difference, because a protest without a real focus for change or influence is pointless in the extreme. The capacity for Israel to continue a military stance against a diplomatic solution is entirely dependent on the supply of military aid. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Sep 14 9.25am

Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.20am

Prima facie,it would seem many protested re Gaza because they perceived major human rights abuses being perpetrated in the Middle East against the Palestinians.

We (the UK), through our misguided past policies of aiding and abetting jihadi groups when it suited us (viz Afghanistan in the late 80's) giving asylum to some pretty nasty characters in the 90's,and turning a blind eye to Saudi Wahhabi funding of pernicious textbooks etc being disseminated in mosques here, have a responsibility for creating a mind set that has resulted seemingly in a not insignificant number of young Muslims her being attracted to ISIS' ideology. If 500 plus go to fight, how many more empathise with those who have gone?

So, for me, there is no simple "cop out" answer of saying Palestine is "different" because we supply weapons to Israel, as opposed to ISIS where we have no such involvement...

Whilst I do mostly agree with this, I would say there is a difference, because a protest without a real focus for change or influence is pointless in the extreme. The capacity for Israel to continue a military stance against a diplomatic solution is entirely dependent on the supply of military aid.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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legaleagle 03 Sep 14 9.31am
The "change" or "influence" that is needed here is to somehow seek to reclaim the "hearts and minds" of those of our fellow citizens who have fallen for this ideology. That is the "difference" we could make...ISIS has some thousands of "soldiers" who have flocked to join it from other countries...Their potential influence would be weakened without such support (and funding/logistical assistance) from elsewhere... Plus, we cannot entirely overlook the trans-national and trans-regional nature of the ideology in question...It would be foolhardy (without falling into the trap of mass demonisation) to say there is no potential for direct "blow back" here in the UK in the future... Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.37am)
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legaleagle

03 Sep 14 9.31am

The "change" or "influence" that is needed here is to somehow seek to reclaim the "hearts and minds" of those of our fellow citizens who have fallen for this ideology. That is the "difference" we could make...ISIS has some thousands of "soldiers" who have flocked to join it from other countries...Their potential influence would be weakened without such support (and funding/logistical assistance) from elsewhere...

Plus, we cannot entirely overlook the trans-national and trans-regional nature of the ideology in question...It would be foolhardy (without falling into the trap of mass demonisation) to say there is no potential for direct "blow back" here in the UK in the future...

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.37am)

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matt_himself Matataland 03 Sep 14 9.36am
Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 9.14am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'. That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew. Really? I think that if, as is made out in the liberal media and by pandering apologists, that the Muslim community is regularly 'appalled' by these acts violence, surely they would do something to highlight and show their disgust against Muslim extremist violence to the wider World. It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings. I fully expect that in Kermit World, I am demonstrating ignorance and will be told this soon, but won't really be given and explanation of why it is ignorance. Just told it is with a patronising and empty put down. Which particular Muslim community are you referring to? The Sufis? The secular? The ones who don't believe in Allah/God? The ones who do but live a peaceful, quiet, family life? The London Turkish? The Kurds? Bosniaks? A Maldivian waiters' convention? What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us? We are constantly told by people like yourself that the majority of Muslims are peace loving and abhor violence made in the name of Islam. We are constantly told that Islam is a peace loving religion. Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world? Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer. Because they don't understand nor relate to them so feel, rightly, they have nothing to answer for, is the logical explanation. But you want to partly blame still for all the crap that is going on. Why is that, I wonder? Are all muslims guilty in your world? Edited by Kermit8 (03 Sep 2014 9.18am) Same old Kermit. You are asked a question you don't like following one of your spurious comments and turn it into an accusation. I do not believe all Muslims are guilty. What I believe is that there is a reluctance to condemn atrocities committed in the name of Islam by IS, Boko Haram and other nutters and, judging by the steady stream of young British Muslims heading off to places like Syria to partake in holiday Jihad, believe that there is a quiet support for the end to justify means in the broader Muslim community. I don't see wide spread condemnation of this extremism in the Muslim community, by any means, written or physical. To flip this, there was wide scale condemnation of Israels recent actions in Jewish community. Persuade me otherwise. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 03 Sep 14 9.36am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 9.14am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am

That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew.

It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings.

What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us?

Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world?

Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer.

Edited by Kermit8 (03 Sep 2014 9.18am)

Same old Kermit. You are asked a question you don't like following one of your spurious comments and turn it into an accusation.

I do not believe all Muslims are guilty. What I believe is that there is a reluctance to condemn atrocities committed in the name of Islam by IS, Boko Haram and other nutters and, judging by the steady stream of young British Muslims heading off to places like Syria to partake in holiday Jihad, believe that there is a quiet support for the end to justify means in the broader Muslim community. I don't see wide spread condemnation of this extremism in the Muslim community, by any means, written or physical.

To flip this, there was wide scale condemnation of Israels recent actions in Jewish community.

Persuade me otherwise.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Kermit8 Hevon 03 Sep 14 10.57am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 9.36am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 9.14am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am I imagine that the beheading of Steven Sotloff will bring the hundreds of thousands of moderate British Muslims, as we are told exist by lefties, out onto the streets to campaign against such brutality 'not in my name'. That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew. Really? I think that if, as is made out in the liberal media and by pandering apologists, that the Muslim community is regularly 'appalled' by these acts violence, surely they would do something to highlight and show their disgust against Muslim extremist violence to the wider World. It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings. I fully expect that in Kermit World, I am demonstrating ignorance and will be told this soon, but won't really be given and explanation of why it is ignorance. Just told it is with a patronising and empty put down. Which particular Muslim community are you referring to? The Sufis? The secular? The ones who don't believe in Allah/God? The ones who do but live a peaceful, quiet, family life? The London Turkish? The Kurds? Bosniaks? A Maldivian waiters' convention? What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us? We are constantly told by people like yourself that the majority of Muslims are peace loving and abhor violence made in the name of Islam. We are constantly told that Islam is a peace loving religion. Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world? Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer. Because they don't understand nor relate to them so feel, rightly, they have nothing to answer for, is the logical explanation. But you want to partly blame still for all the crap that is going on. Why is that, I wonder? Are all muslims guilty in your world? Edited by Kermit8 (03 Sep 2014 9.18am) Same old Kermit. You are asked a question you don't like following one of your spurious comments and turn it into an accusation. I do not believe all Muslims are guilty. What I believe is that there is a reluctance to condemn atrocities committed in the name of Islam by IS, Boko Haram and other nutters and, judging by the steady stream of young British Muslims heading off to places like Syria to partake in holiday Jihad, believe that there is a quiet support for the end to justify means in the broader Muslim community. I don't see wide spread condemnation of this extremism in the Muslim community, by any means, written or physical. To flip this, there was wide scale condemnation of Israels recent actions in Jewish community. Persuade me otherwise. I would be interested in what evidence-based work you have read to come to this conclusion. Do you have the link? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 03 Sep 14 10.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 9.36am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 9.14am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.27am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 8.19am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 7.20am

Quote Kermit8 at 03 Sep 2014 6.57am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 6.44am

That's because its not in their name. They would be murdered too by ISIS for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Rabble rousing nonsense, Matthew.

It appears that apologists, like yourself, say one thing on behalf of Muslims but the Muslim community does not appear to back up your mealy mouthed offerings.

What have they got to do with IS - a dangerous foe of theirs too - anymore than you or I that you feel it is they that should get up and parade down Whitehall and not us?

Therefore, ignoring your facile comment, what are these peaceful people doing to empathise this to the Muslim extremists and the wider world?

Nothing or next nothing appears to be the answer.

Edited by Kermit8 (03 Sep 2014 9.18am)

Same old Kermit. You are asked a question you don't like following one of your spurious comments and turn it into an accusation.

I do not believe all Muslims are guilty. What I believe is that there is a reluctance to condemn atrocities committed in the name of Islam by IS, Boko Haram and other nutters and, judging by the steady stream of young British Muslims heading off to places like Syria to partake in holiday Jihad, believe that there is a quiet support for the end to justify means in the broader Muslim community. I don't see wide spread condemnation of this extremism in the Muslim community, by any means, written or physical.

To flip this, there was wide scale condemnation of Israels recent actions in Jewish community.

Persuade me otherwise.

I would be interested in what evidence-based work you have read to come to this conclusion. Do you have the link?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Sep 14 10.58am
Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.31am The "change" or "influence" that is needed here is to somehow seek to reclaim the "hearts and minds" of those of our fellow citizens who have fallen for this ideology. That is the "difference" we could make...ISIS has some thousands of "soldiers" who have flocked to join it from other countries...Their potential influence would be weakened without such support (and funding/logistical assistance) from elsewhere... Plus, we cannot entirely overlook the trans-national and trans-regional nature of the ideology in question...It would be foolhardy (without falling into the trap of mass demonisation) to say there is no potential for direct "blow back" here in the UK in the future... Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.37am) I'm not sure that viable, the hearts and minds thing needs to really be utilised to choke off the development of support. Its a real issue where increasing isolation and targeting of the muslim community for acts they aren't responsible for, results in the generation of fear, anger leading to a radicalisation process. Groups like Britian First, as well as policy discussion that can be seen as specifically targeting the muslim population (ban the burka etc) don't actually help. They breed alienation and the sense of injustice and helplessness that are key factors in radicalisation. Boris Johnsons ideas for example would mean essentially anyone who travelled to syria could be considered, including those who worked with nationalist rebels, relief groups, medial support etc. The problem is that once radicalised, and individual has often taken a step over a line that cannot be returned from, even if you wanted to. You're trapped, because its a choice between continuing the 'cause' or spending the rest of your life in maximum security prison (not to mention the possibility of torture). That said at least one would be suicide bomber in the UK had a change of heart, and went over to become an intelligence asset (and spent 10 years 'in prison' - likely untrue in the traditional sense). Of course some 'threats' you have to leave in place, regardless of what the media like to crow about Radical Preacher, because they're rich intelligence sources. Young men have always been attracted to extreme causes, from the national front to the communist party to the IRA and UVF, for a number of reasons. What we need to do is identify why, and act to prevent those factors that start the initial process of isolation, alienation and marginalisation in society. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Sep 14 10.58am

Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.31am

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.37am)

I'm not sure that viable, the hearts and minds thing needs to really be utilised to choke off the development of support. Its a real issue where increasing isolation and targeting of the muslim community for acts they aren't responsible for, results in the generation of fear, anger leading to a radicalisation process. Groups like Britian First, as well as policy discussion that can be seen as specifically targeting the muslim population (ban the burka etc) don't actually help. They breed alienation and the sense of injustice and helplessness that are key factors in radicalisation.

Boris Johnsons ideas for example would mean essentially anyone who travelled to syria could be considered, including those who worked with nationalist rebels, relief groups, medial support etc.

The problem is that once radicalised, and individual has often taken a step over a line that cannot be returned from, even if you wanted to. You're trapped, because its a choice between continuing the 'cause' or spending the rest of your life in maximum security prison (not to mention the possibility of torture). That said at least one would be suicide bomber in the UK had a change of heart, and went over to become an intelligence asset (and spent 10 years 'in prison' - likely untrue in the traditional sense).

Of course some 'threats' you have to leave in place, regardless of what the media like to crow about Radical Preacher, because they're rich intelligence sources. Young men have always been attracted to extreme causes, from the national front to the communist party to the IRA and UVF, for a number of reasons. What we need to do is identify why, and act to prevent those factors that start the initial process of isolation, alienation and marginalisation in society.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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