Unemployment falls to seven year low

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derben 15 May 15 8.37am
Quote nickgusset at 14 May 2015 4.16pm [Link] This is appalling. I agree, the constant posting of these propaganda links is appalling.
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derben

15 May 15 8.37am

Quote nickgusset at 14 May 2015 4.16pm

[Link]

This is appalling.

I agree, the constant posting of these propaganda links is appalling.

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legaleagle 15 May 15 10.27am
Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 5.13am Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 1.43am Quote rob1969 at 14 May 2015 4.33pm According to article in the Times today of the 500K+ jobs created recently well over 50% were taken by immigrant workers - mainly from Rumania and Bulgaria. Seems UK is doing a better job for their unemployed than our own! Interesting hypothesis by the Murdoch press,given that as of late 2014, the total number of Romanians and Bulgarians living in the UK including students and dependants (let alone those who might have recently taken a "newly created" job) was estimated to be below 40% of 500,000 (let alone 500,000 plus). But,if it was in the Murdoch press,it must be correct...and it must be those pesky Romanians and Hungarians lining up to take those jobs we would otherwise so desperately want to take. Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 1.47am) Beneath the above sarcasm and superiority, lies something that I just do not understand about the left. Doesn't it sit at odds with your beliefs that all mass immigration is doing is creating an underclass? This underclass doesn't speak English, doesn't live where you live, doesn't socialise where you socialise and gets paid an awful lot less than you? I am sure that anecdotes about being friends with Bulgarian bus drivers and Romanian baristas will pour in but the fact is that mass immigration is creating such a difference in living standards doesn't sit comfortably with me and I am not a mung bean eating leftie, It appears that the left is more concerned with politically correct attitudes about immigration rather than the effects of immigration on all parties concerned with it. That isn't right. Its always interesting to see when you seek to convert a post away from what it was actually about,not to mention impose your own insightful "knowledge" of what the writer must have had in mind (in fact primarily a dig at the sometimes shaky factual basis and hyperbole of sweeping generalisations made at times by the Murdoch press) into a dig premised on your very narrow perception and generalisation of "the left".Some might say that evidences a sense of innate "superiority" I'm sorry you personally may not appear to encounter significant numbers of immigrants who speak English,meet significant numbers of immigrants who are highly qualified "professionals", or ever socialise where significant numbers of immigrants do. Funnily enough,many in my experience socialise in (shock horror) the same kinds of places everyone else does...as a night out in central London on a friday or saturday demonstrates. As for the horrors of a low wage economy,and the exploitation of some immigrant workers,nothing in my post could reasonably impute to a rational and open minded reader any suggestion I think they are desirable. Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 10.30am)
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legaleagle

15 May 15 10.27am

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 5.13am

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 1.43am

Quote rob1969 at 14 May 2015 4.33pm

According to article in the Times today of the 500K+ jobs created recently well over 50% were taken by immigrant workers - mainly from Rumania and Bulgaria.
Seems UK is doing a better job for their unemployed than our own!

Interesting hypothesis by the Murdoch press,given that as of late 2014, the total number of Romanians and Bulgarians living in the UK including students and dependants (let alone those who might have recently taken a "newly created" job) was estimated to be below 40% of 500,000 (let alone 500,000 plus).

But,if it was in the Murdoch press,it must be correct...and it must be those pesky Romanians and Hungarians lining up to take those jobs we would otherwise so desperately want to take.

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 1.47am)

Beneath the above sarcasm and superiority, lies something that I just do not understand about the left.

Doesn't it sit at odds with your beliefs that all mass immigration is doing is creating an underclass? This underclass doesn't speak English, doesn't live where you live, doesn't socialise where you socialise and gets paid an awful lot less than you?

I am sure that anecdotes about being friends with Bulgarian bus drivers and Romanian baristas will pour in but the fact is that mass immigration is creating such a difference in living standards doesn't sit comfortably with me and I am not a mung bean eating leftie,

It appears that the left is more concerned with politically correct attitudes about immigration rather than the effects of immigration on all parties concerned with it. That isn't right.

Its always interesting to see when you seek to convert a post away from what it was actually about,not to mention impose your own insightful "knowledge" of what the writer must have had in mind (in fact primarily a dig at the sometimes shaky factual basis and hyperbole of sweeping generalisations made at times by the Murdoch press) into a dig premised on your very narrow perception and generalisation of "the left".Some might say that evidences a sense of innate "superiority"

I'm sorry you personally may not appear to encounter significant numbers of immigrants who speak English,meet significant numbers of immigrants who are highly qualified "professionals", or ever socialise where significant numbers of immigrants do. Funnily enough,many in my experience socialise in (shock horror) the same kinds of places everyone else does...as a night out in central London on a friday or saturday demonstrates.

As for the horrors of a low wage economy,and the exploitation of some immigrant workers,nothing in my post could reasonably impute to a rational and open minded reader any suggestion I think they are desirable.

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 10.30am)

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matt_himself Matataland 15 May 15 11.23am
Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 10.27am Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 5.13am Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 1.43am Quote rob1969 at 14 May 2015 4.33pm According to article in the Times today of the 500K+ jobs created recently well over 50% were taken by immigrant workers - mainly from Rumania and Bulgaria. Seems UK is doing a better job for their unemployed than our own! Interesting hypothesis by the Murdoch press,given that as of late 2014, the total number of Romanians and Bulgarians living in the UK including students and dependants (let alone those who might have recently taken a "newly created" job) was estimated to be below 40% of 500,000 (let alone 500,000 plus). But,if it was in the Murdoch press,it must be correct...and it must be those pesky Romanians and Hungarians lining up to take those jobs we would otherwise so desperately want to take. Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 1.47am) Beneath the above sarcasm and superiority, lies something that I just do not understand about the left. Doesn't it sit at odds with your beliefs that all mass immigration is doing is creating an underclass? This underclass doesn't speak English, doesn't live where you live, doesn't socialise where you socialise and gets paid an awful lot less than you? I am sure that anecdotes about being friends with Bulgarian bus drivers and Romanian baristas will pour in but the fact is that mass immigration is creating such a difference in living standards doesn't sit comfortably with me and I am not a mung bean eating leftie, It appears that the left is more concerned with politically correct attitudes about immigration rather than the effects of immigration on all parties concerned with it. That isn't right. Its always interesting to see when you seek to convert a post away from what it was actually about,not to mention impose your own insightful "knowledge" of what the writer must have had in mind (in fact primarily a dig at the sometimes shaky factual basis and hyperbole of sweeping generalisations made at times by the Murdoch press) into a dig premised on your very narrow perception and generalisation of "the left".Some might say that evidences a sense of innate "superiority" I'm sorry you personally may not appear to encounter significant numbers of immigrants who speak English,meet significant numbers of immigrants who are highly qualified "professionals", or ever socialise where significant numbers of immigrants do. Funnily enough,many in my experience socialise in (shock horror) the same kinds of places everyone else does...as a night out in central London on a friday or saturday demonstrates. As for the horrors of a low wage economy,and the exploitation of some immigrant workers,nothing in my post could reasonably impute to a rational and open minded reader any suggestion I think they are desirable. Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 10.30am) I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them. Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this. I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 15 May 15 11.23am

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 10.27am

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 5.13am

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 1.43am

Quote rob1969 at 14 May 2015 4.33pm

But,if it was in the Murdoch press,it must be correct...and it must be those pesky Romanians and Hungarians lining up to take those jobs we would otherwise so desperately want to take.

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 1.47am)

Beneath the above sarcasm and superiority, lies something that I just do not understand about the left.

It appears that the left is more concerned with politically correct attitudes about immigration rather than the effects of immigration on all parties concerned with it. That isn't right.

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 10.30am)

I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them.

Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this.

I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Matataland 15 May 15 11.26am
Quote Kermit8 at 15 May 2015 7.28am Nothing new. We've had a noticeable "underclass", "economic apartheid" and subsequent ghettoes of a kind - cardboard city on The South Bank for example - since the vicious manufacturing upheavals and other Government policies of the 80's. I do agree the situation is wholly unpleasant. Immigrant beggars coming over here taking the urine soaked doorways of our own. No one should have to live like that in a first world developed and supposedly civilised country. Should remember though it is an immigrant minority who end up living unemployed and rough. We need the others to help pick our fruit and veg and work in other tough jobs in care homes, etc. Anyhow, isn't just freedom of moment rather than mass immigration? A significant many return home within a few years to Poland. Just them backpacking really and working at the same time. Is it 'progressive politics' to brush off something like this as 'nothing new' and appear to accept thusly? I take it your second paragraph was humour. With regards to the last paragraph, for most it is simply not like that. A low paying job and poor living conditions are their life. Drive around West Croydon and see for yourself some time. It ain't pretty. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 15 May 15 11.26am

Quote Kermit8 at 15 May 2015 7.28am

Nothing new. We've had a noticeable "underclass", "economic apartheid" and subsequent ghettoes of a kind - cardboard city on The South Bank for example - since the vicious manufacturing upheavals and other Government policies of the 80's.

I do agree the situation is wholly unpleasant. Immigrant beggars coming over here taking the urine soaked doorways of our own.

No one should have to live like that in a first world developed and supposedly civilised country.

Should remember though it is an immigrant minority who end up living unemployed and rough. We need the others to help pick our fruit and veg and work in other tough jobs in care homes, etc.

Anyhow, isn't just freedom of moment rather than mass immigration? A significant many return home within a few years to Poland. Just them backpacking really and working at the same time.

Is it 'progressive politics' to brush off something like this as 'nothing new' and appear to accept thusly?

I take it your second paragraph was humour.

With regards to the last paragraph, for most it is simply not like that. A low paying job and poor living conditions are their life. Drive around West Croydon and see for yourself some time. It ain't pretty.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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legaleagle 15 May 15 12.21pm
Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them. Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this. I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country. Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population). The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English! Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case? Would a solution to having loads of people doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" be to have a higher minimum hourly wage,greater legal restrictions on having inadequate working conditions, and to enforce this extremely vigorously,with very strong sanctions against employers who ignored this and exploited those who work for them? If not,why not? Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm)
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legaleagle

15 May 15 12.21pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am

I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them.

Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population).

The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English!

Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case?

Would a solution to having loads of people doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" be to have a higher minimum hourly wage,greater legal restrictions on having inadequate working conditions, and to enforce this extremely vigorously,with very strong sanctions against employers who ignored this and exploited those who work for them? If not,why not?

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm)

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OldFella London 15 May 15 12.40pm
Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them. Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this. I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country. Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population). The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English! Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case? Would a solution to having loads of people doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" be to have a higher minimum hourly wage,greater legal restrictions on having inadequate working conditions, and to enforce this extremely vigorously,with very strong sanctions against employers who ignored this and exploited those who work for them? If not,why not? Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm) In between all of your smug, patronising, self-aggrandising, verbose, full of waffle posts do you ever actually do any work? Just asking Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it..
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OldFella

London 15 May 15 12.40pm

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am

Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population).

The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English!

Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case?

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm)

In between all of your smug, patronising, self-aggrandising, verbose, full of waffle posts do you ever actually do any work? Just asking

Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it..

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jamiemartin721 Reading 15 May 15 12.53pm
Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 6.58am Do you have an opinion on how mass migration is creating an underclass? More worryingly, I believe that mass migration is causing an economic apartheid. Walk around any major conurbation and it is easy to spot low rent, deprived ghettos which are largely inhabited by those seeking work in the UK. Given that the typical migrant you're discussing is employed, working and functionally active within society they aren't forming an underclass. Underclasses generally are groups outside of the operational structures of a class system and operation - such as travelers, gypsies, the homeless and maybe potentially the long term unemployed and unemployable. However, there is definitely an issue regarding the last part of that list. The use of migrant labour, which essentially is temporary labour has restricted the growth of wages in relation to the cost of living resulting in forcing people into a position where working isn't viable (governments maintain as much responsibility in this for not linking the minimum wage to a real cost of living (whilst benefits were). This meant that welfare payments rose, whilst the minimum wage didn't. A resultant problem of this, is that it becomes more viable in certain situations to retain welfare than to work. The migrant workers aren't actually the problem, its the fact that coming from countries with lower costs and suitable exchange rates, the income earned here translates much more significantly back in say Poland - Plus the need to maintain dependency costs such as family are negligible in the UK so they can rent bedsits shared housing etc (something that's not an option if you have a family). Being a migrant worker long term, has little value, because the reality is that if you settle here long term, you get caught in the same trap that affects the unemployed here (the fact that wages in low skill work are actually below the proposed living wage). There are probably some areas that have, as a result become say, European worker ghettos, but in my experience, those areas were hardly prestigious zones of social wonder. The problems of South London, Norwood etc isn't down to migration, its the death of industry. These were areas which typically fed into the large scale industry and employment, that died off through the 80s and 90s, and has seen well paid working class low and no skill work, replaced with service industry jobs or McJobs to borrow a phrase. My family from Norwood and Crystal Palace, all worked in assorted working class jobs that have in my life time shrunk down the scale of the work force, and the opportunities of employment, due to large scale rationalization of services and technological developments within industrial jobs "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 15 May 15 12.53pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 6.58am

Do you have an opinion on how mass migration is creating an underclass? More worryingly, I believe that mass migration is causing an economic apartheid. Walk around any major conurbation and it is easy to spot low rent, deprived ghettos which are largely inhabited by those seeking work in the UK.

Given that the typical migrant you're discussing is employed, working and functionally active within society they aren't forming an underclass. Underclasses generally are groups outside of the operational structures of a class system and operation - such as travelers, gypsies, the homeless and maybe potentially the long term unemployed and unemployable.

However, there is definitely an issue regarding the last part of that list. The use of migrant labour, which essentially is temporary labour has restricted the growth of wages in relation to the cost of living resulting in forcing people into a position where working isn't viable (governments maintain as much responsibility in this for not linking the minimum wage to a real cost of living (whilst benefits were). This meant that welfare payments rose, whilst the minimum wage didn't.

A resultant problem of this, is that it becomes more viable in certain situations to retain welfare than to work.

The migrant workers aren't actually the problem, its the fact that coming from countries with lower costs and suitable exchange rates, the income earned here translates much more significantly back in say Poland - Plus the need to maintain dependency costs such as family are negligible in the UK so they can rent bedsits shared housing etc (something that's not an option if you have a family).

Being a migrant worker long term, has little value, because the reality is that if you settle here long term, you get caught in the same trap that affects the unemployed here (the fact that wages in low skill work are actually below the proposed living wage).

There are probably some areas that have, as a result become say, European worker ghettos, but in my experience, those areas were hardly prestigious zones of social wonder.

The problems of South London, Norwood etc isn't down to migration, its the death of industry. These were areas which typically fed into the large scale industry and employment, that died off through the 80s and 90s, and has seen well paid working class low and no skill work, replaced with service industry jobs or McJobs to borrow a phrase.

My family from Norwood and Crystal Palace, all worked in assorted working class jobs that have in my life time shrunk down the scale of the work force, and the opportunities of employment, due to large scale rationalization of services and technological developments within industrial jobs

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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matt_himself Matataland 15 May 15 12.58pm
Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them. Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this. I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country. Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population). The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English! Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case? Would a solution to having loads of people doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" be to have a higher minimum hourly wage,greater legal restrictions on having inadequate working conditions, and to enforce this extremely vigorously,with very strong sanctions against employers who ignored this and exploited those who work for them? If not,why not? Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm) Being a 'highly skilled worker' cannot be achieved by someone having a degree. A highly skilled worker is yes, qualified but also able to do their job very well. I know of graduates with fantastic qualifications in my industry yet when it comes to doing the job at hand, they can't do it. Your overuse of simplistic statistics used incorrectly doesn't aid your argument. I didn't say 'immigrants' don't speak English, I said that an 'underclass' was being created who can't speak English and have s***ty jobs. Your third paragraph sums up my question and thought on this subject. You are on the one hand 'anti austerity' yet on the other happy to justify employment inequalities and a system loaded against immigrants because 'it has always been like that'. Funnily enough, Michael used that argument on the previous page. As you are a supporter of 'progressive politics' that position appears to sit at odds with 'progressive politics' and I can only assume that you are not supporting immigration to better people's lives or enrich society, you are supporting immigration because you (wrongly) believe your political opponents are against it. With regards to your last point, the idea of people working hard, trying to pay for themselves and being forced into borderline poverty (by western standards) appalls me. That should not be the result of a capitalist society with one nation ideals. That is why we should be encouraging true growth of the family business, the management buy out and entrepreneurs who recognise and reward hard work. The is definitely a place in our society, and a need, for big business. However a rebalance whereby, smaller businesses who, generally, have a more vested interest in keeping staff happy and motivated, are supported through enterprise zones, tax credits and other incentives would, in my opinion, reduce the inequality in living standards. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 15 May 15 12.58pm

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am

Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population).

The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English!

Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case?

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm)

Being a 'highly skilled worker' cannot be achieved by someone having a degree. A highly skilled worker is yes, qualified but also able to do their job very well. I know of graduates with fantastic qualifications in my industry yet when it comes to doing the job at hand, they can't do it. Your overuse of simplistic statistics used incorrectly doesn't aid your argument.

I didn't say 'immigrants' don't speak English, I said that an 'underclass' was being created who can't speak English and have s***ty jobs.

Your third paragraph sums up my question and thought on this subject. You are on the one hand 'anti austerity' yet on the other happy to justify employment inequalities and a system loaded against immigrants because 'it has always been like that'. Funnily enough, Michael used that argument on the previous page. As you are a supporter of 'progressive politics' that position appears to sit at odds with 'progressive politics' and I can only assume that you are not supporting immigration to better people's lives or enrich society, you are supporting immigration because you (wrongly) believe your political opponents are against it.

With regards to your last point, the idea of people working hard, trying to pay for themselves and being forced into borderline poverty (by western standards) appalls me. That should not be the result of a capitalist society with one nation ideals. That is why we should be encouraging true growth of the family business, the management buy out and entrepreneurs who recognise and reward hard work. The is definitely a place in our society, and a need, for big business. However a rebalance whereby, smaller businesses who, generally, have a more vested interest in keeping staff happy and motivated, are supported through enterprise zones, tax credits and other incentives would, in my opinion, reduce the inequality in living standards.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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jamiemartin721 Reading 15 May 15 1.00pm
Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them. Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this. I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country. Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population). The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English! Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case? Would a solution to having loads of people doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" be to have a higher minimum hourly wage,greater legal restrictions on having inadequate working conditions, and to enforce this extremely vigorously,with very strong sanctions against employers who ignored this and exploited those who work for them? If not,why not? Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm) This is generally my experience. When I was at FJU we had a Slovak receptionist, who had a degree in Physics and two Polish women running the cafeteria, one had a masters in Economics and the other a PhD in Psychology. All of them were fluent in English, Russian, German and their home languages. We also had a cleaner who was a qualified lecturer in his home country, but was cleaning in the UK, whilst awaiting the chance to sit his 'teaching qualification' that would allow him to teach at GCSE and A-Level - But he was a technically a citizen, having been granted asylum from Iran. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 15 May 15 1.00pm

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am

Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population).

The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English!

Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case?

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm)

This is generally my experience. When I was at FJU we had a Slovak receptionist, who had a degree in Physics and two Polish women running the cafeteria, one had a masters in Economics and the other a PhD in Psychology. All of them were fluent in English, Russian, German and their home languages.

We also had a cleaner who was a qualified lecturer in his home country, but was cleaning in the UK, whilst awaiting the chance to sit his 'teaching qualification' that would allow him to teach at GCSE and A-Level - But he was a technically a citizen, having been granted asylum from Iran.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 15 May 15 1.02pm
Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.26am Quote Kermit8 at 15 May 2015 7.28am Nothing new. We've had a noticeable "underclass", "economic apartheid" and subsequent ghettoes of a kind - cardboard city on The South Bank for example - since the vicious manufacturing upheavals and other Government policies of the 80's. I do agree the situation is wholly unpleasant. Immigrant beggars coming over here taking the urine soaked doorways of our own. No one should have to live like that in a first world developed and supposedly civilised country. Should remember though it is an immigrant minority who end up living unemployed and rough. We need the others to help pick our fruit and veg and work in other tough jobs in care homes, etc. Anyhow, isn't just freedom of moment rather than mass immigration? A significant many return home within a few years to Poland. Just them backpacking really and working at the same time. Is it 'progressive politics' to brush off something like this as 'nothing new' and appear to accept thusly? I take it your second paragraph was humour. With regards to the last paragraph, for most it is simply not like that. A low paying job and poor living conditions are their life. Drive around West Croydon and see for yourself some time. It ain't pretty. The conditions you find in West Croydon have always been around pockets of the UK but the numbers in our lifetime have only significantly changed since the 80's. Swathes of the industrial north were laid waste way before we had EU freedom of movement. Unfortunately, the way of the UK these days where money is everything the only chance of being progressive re:housing is to, ironically, follow the European model from countries like France and Germany where state intervention is common. But that isn't going to happen. Too lefty an idea notions such as rent regulation. Immoral right-wing economic thinking has led us to the housing crisis and rip off rents. It's treated like any other aggressive capitalistic market when it shouldn't be. The reversal of mass immigration won't stop the housing sector being what it is today. The only thing that will will be a massive overhaul from a radical PM and Housing Minister. But we will both be long dead by then. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 15 May 15 1.02pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.26am

Quote Kermit8 at 15 May 2015 7.28am

I do agree the situation is wholly unpleasant. Immigrant beggars coming over here taking the urine soaked doorways of our own.

No one should have to live like that in a first world developed and supposedly civilised country.

Should remember though it is an immigrant minority who end up living unemployed and rough. We need the others to help pick our fruit and veg and work in other tough jobs in care homes, etc.

Anyhow, isn't just freedom of moment rather than mass immigration? A significant many return home within a few years to Poland. Just them backpacking really and working at the same time.

Is it 'progressive politics' to brush off something like this as 'nothing new' and appear to accept thusly?

I take it your second paragraph was humour.

The conditions you find in West Croydon have always been around pockets of the UK but the numbers in our lifetime have only significantly changed since the 80's. Swathes of the industrial north were laid waste way before we had EU freedom of movement.

Unfortunately, the way of the UK these days where money is everything the only chance of being progressive re:housing is to, ironically, follow the European model from countries like France and Germany where state intervention is common. But that isn't going to happen. Too lefty an idea notions such as rent regulation. Immoral right-wing economic thinking has led us to the housing crisis and rip off rents. It's treated like any other aggressive capitalistic market when it shouldn't be.

The reversal of mass immigration won't stop the housing sector being what it is today. The only thing that will will be a massive overhaul from a radical PM and Housing Minister. But we will both be long dead by then.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 15 May 15 1.04pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 May 2015 1.00pm Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them. Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this. I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country. Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population). The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English! Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case? Would a solution to having loads of people doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" be to have a higher minimum hourly wage,greater legal restrictions on having inadequate working conditions, and to enforce this extremely vigorously,with very strong sanctions against employers who ignored this and exploited those who work for them? If not,why not? Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm) This is generally my experience. When I was at FJU we had a Slovak receptionist, who had a degree in Physics and two Polish women running the cafeteria, one had a masters in Economics and the other a PhD in Psychology. All of them were fluent in English, Russian, German and their home languages. We also had a cleaner who was a qualified lecturer in his home country, but was cleaning in the UK, whilst awaiting the chance to sit his 'teaching qualification' that would allow him to teach at GCSE and A-Level - But he was a technically a citizen, having been granted asylum from Iran. I only have a lowly University lecturer and career break lawyer and child minder on my list of EU Eastern Europeaners living in the UK taking our jobs. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 15 May 15 1.04pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 May 2015 1.00pm

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am

Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population).

The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English!

Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case?

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm)

I only have a lowly University lecturer and career break lawyer and child minder on my list of EU Eastern Europeaners living in the UK taking our jobs.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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matt_himself Matataland 15 May 15 1.19pm
Quote Kermit8 at 15 May 2015 1.04pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 May 2015 1.00pm Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am I think you are taking a far too romantic view of the life of an immigrant in Britain. I do not dispute that there is a thin number that are 'highly skilled professionals' who enjoy the benefits of London & all that comes with it. Good on them. Then there is the rest and life isn't that romantic. Living in run down areas, doing crap jobs and living on the margins. It is a system that we have created and are perpetuating. It is tantamount to modern slavery, in many ways. However, as long as we romanticise the issue, it can be swept under the carpet and arguments & labels used against those seeking to discuss this. I will ignore the comment about the foreign languages and stick to the question. Why does the left appear to endorse this system whereby people are shipped in to do rubbish jobs, in rubbish conditions? They don't even question it and it has serious effects, not least creating an unemployment pool of nigh on 2 million in this country. Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population). The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English! Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case? Would a solution to having loads of people doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" be to have a higher minimum hourly wage,greater legal restrictions on having inadequate working conditions, and to enforce this extremely vigorously,with very strong sanctions against employers who ignored this and exploited those who work for them? If not,why not? Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm) This is generally my experience. When I was at FJU we had a Slovak receptionist, who had a degree in Physics and two Polish women running the cafeteria, one had a masters in Economics and the other a PhD in Psychology. All of them were fluent in English, Russian, German and their home languages. We also had a cleaner who was a qualified lecturer in his home country, but was cleaning in the UK, whilst awaiting the chance to sit his 'teaching qualification' that would allow him to teach at GCSE and A-Level - But he was a technically a citizen, having been granted asylum from Iran. I only have a lowly University lecturer and career break lawyer and child minder on my list of EU Eastern Europeaners living in the UK taking our jobs. I don't think the guys dropped off by the construction companies vans drinking Tennants Super in Thornton Heath pond of an evening have such lofty titles or qualifications. I don't think the guys driving the minicabs or operating the car washes in Purley Way have the same titles or qualifications. However, as this is obviously something you, Jamie and Legal have not encountered, nor wish to encounter or address, shall we say that whilst you think all immigrants to this country are having a ball (as highly skilled, upwardly social individuals) and I don't agree that this & think most are being taken advantage of & are living on the fringes of society, we should agree to disagree? Edited by matt_himself (15 May 2015 1.21pm) "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 15 May 15 1.19pm

Quote Kermit8 at 15 May 2015 1.04pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 May 2015 1.00pm

Quote legaleagle at 15 May 2015 12.21pm

Quote matt_himself at 15 May 2015 11.23am

Do bear in mind that statistics indicate c.32% of recent EU immigrants have a degree (a figure about 50% higher than that within the general UK population).

The comment about foreign languages was made only because you suggested immigrants don't speak English!

Would you agree many people in the UK over the past 100-150 years prior to the year 2000 ended up doing "rubbish jobs" in "rubbish conditions" living in "run down" areas? Why was this the case?

Edited by legaleagle (15 May 2015 12.22pm)

I only have a lowly University lecturer and career break lawyer and child minder on my list of EU Eastern Europeaners living in the UK taking our jobs.

I don't think the guys dropped off by the construction companies vans drinking Tennants Super in Thornton Heath pond of an evening have such lofty titles or qualifications. I don't think the guys driving the minicabs or operating the car washes in Purley Way have the same titles or qualifications.

However, as this is obviously something you, Jamie and Legal have not encountered, nor wish to encounter or address, shall we say that whilst you think all immigrants to this country are having a ball (as highly skilled, upwardly social individuals) and I don't agree that this & think most are being taken advantage of & are living on the fringes of society, we should agree to disagree?

Edited by matt_himself (15 May 2015 1.21pm)

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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