We are not dealing with hypotheticals we are dealing with reality and how reality effects peoples minds.

Personal safety and that of one's family comes way further up the list than the virtue of being liberal minded. One normally goes by personal experience and facts not airbrushed idealism.

It seems that when attempting to be reasoned in relation to my parallel which is non racial, not pro black or white, it's an unhelpful hypothetical. I'm not being 'liberal'. My comment is not pro black or pro white it addresses that fact that we fixate on the group rather than the individual in a way we'd never do with white people, on account that most people are white.

When you applaud a hypothetical, one which injects violence of black men into a scenario out of nowhere, that's fine (see attached).

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 6.35pm)

I don't see that your statement means anything beyond an intellectual point. You can employ an argument for most circumstances but it will be meaningless in the cold light of day.

As for your final sentence, you are not comparing like for like. There is a different context of those statements.
You are the one making it about racism. I am talking about simple unbiased realities. The sort you can illustrate with official statistics. No prejudice, no propaganda, no politics, just simple facts.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (10 Nov 2015 6.48pm)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (10 Nov 2015 6.48pm)

Well in the previous post it was all about how important your personal experience was. Your personal experience is no more meaningful than anyone elses, and as no such is no better measure of anything.

As for facts again, most bankers are white. People have been foaming at the mouth at bankers for the past few years. Do we then blame 'whites' for financial collapse? Most school shootings in the US are committed by white people. Do you fixate on how this is a 'white problem' that whites are responsible for? No, 'nor should we'.

When a crime is committed by a white person here we hold them personally to account for that, when it's committed by a black person we blame the demographic. The same is true of other minorities too. It's unhelpful. We have a system of law. If someone commits a crime, arrest them, if they don't stop puttting them under the microscope.

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 7.02pm)

OK. I doubt that the colour of bankers is a factor, just their domination of that sector. It would be highly surprising therefore if dodgy bankers were not mostly white because the vast majority of bankers are white. School shootings are statistically irrelevant. So why then do we think that most street crime is committed by a minority group of the population ? There must be a reason and what are we doing about it ? Because when you only make up 3% of a population and you still commit double the crime then I think that's a problem that needs addressing don't you ?
Philosophical arguments are great and often very reasonable but they don't really fix the problem.
In this case, with respect, your comparisons are totally flawed.

You've done is found reasons to excuse why being white is irrelevent in those cases. Almost all school and mass shootings in the US are carried out by white teenagers. That's a fact too. It doesn't become a non fact just because on a larger scale most gun crime is carried out by others. We are arbitrarily excusing and exempting judgement upon a group of people because we don't personally feel it's a reflection on ourselves. Maybe we should extend that special exception to all.

It's clear that lots of factors, such as poverty and the like contribute to crime and we can do our best to lift people out of that. People feeling alientated from the mainstream likely contributes too and being fixated on due to race is an issue. That's what some have done here.

The sensible way to approach this thread would've been to condemn these two arseholes and throw the book at them whether it was for the attack or for any provable racial aspect too. You don't seem to appreciate that most black people never commit crime and as such where you feel they should be placed under the microscope, I appreciate that endless fruitless fixation on peoples race only for the negative can itself cause very real problems and likely factors into the current situation.

I'm sorry but neither of those factors are excuses for street crime. There are plenty of poor White and Asians etc and to say that back people are alienated from the mainstream is just ridiculous.
Your comparisons on school shootings are flawed because the vast majority of people in America are white, therefore a rare occurrence like a school shooting is highly likely to be committed by a white person. You are not helping your argument with daft comparisons.

You don't seem to want to tackle the undeniable problem that the black community has. Many people on the receiving end of knife crime are black themselves. Doesn't that bother you ? Would you rather just continue to dress it up ?

It's one thing highlighting stats it's another using them against a whole race. That's what several comments have done here. The implication here is that what TUX said wasn't racist. You have placed a stamp of approval on a post that suggests that despite that belief, if it was said to a black man he would probably visit violence upon you and that would then prove TUX's point. It's the stuff of fantasy, this idea that any given black man is violent and people do not deserve to be talked about as if they are.

You've dismissed a type of crime that is almost exclusively white as 'irrelevant'. You've dismissed poverty as an issue. You are saying that alientation isn't a factor and it's 'ridiculous' to say so - nice that you now speak on behalf of other communtiies too. You are dismissing all external factors many of which likely play at least some part as 'daft'. You clearly know your stuff. What are you actually saying about black people then? For you to know that something 100% isn't the answer you must therefore have a very good idea of what is? Enlighten us with your racial tightrope walking.

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 8.50pm)

Your post starts with emotive nonsense and carries on in the same vein. I can't respond to meaningless accusatory arguments which ignore reality. I have been very clear in my comments and I would stand by all of them. What I'm not going to do chew the same fat all night.
Also I have not approved anything racist that is also nonsense.If you don't like the posts you keep referencing then take that up with the people who posted them.

I asked you what this is leading up to. As I stated:

You've dismissed a type of crime that is almost exclusively white as 'irrelevant'. You've dismissed poverty as an issue. You are saying that alientation isn't a factor and it's 'ridiculous' to say so. You are dismissing external factors many of which likely play at least some part as 'daft'.

Those are facts too so as I stated, what are you actually saying about black people and crime? You seem to somehow know as fact that these eternal elements do not factor in. Hence you must have an idea of what does?

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 9.13pm)

I'm dismissing your comparisons because they are not valid. If you can't see why, then I'm not spelling it out again.
And I would say that the black community is best placed to understand and sort out it's own problems. Of course if the level of denial you demonstrate is the norm then that is unlikely to happen any time soon.

Good night.

You actually said that it's ridiculous to say that the black community feels alienated, so like I said before you are the one who feels able to speak on their behalf. So much for listening.

Maybe when a thread about a teenage girl hitting an old lady gets contorted into one about 'black men stab stats' we need to start thinking about the arbitrary knee jerk connections we make in our head. Most black people are obviously as disgusted by this incident as we are.

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 9.28pm)

All decent humans are disgusted by this.
You make some good points. The reason that black people are making up a high % of the crime stats could well be down to alienation, it could be a result of racism form the 80's, it could be that Afro-Caribbean culture has certain negative elements.
The truth is probably a combination of all the above (with some added extra reasons).
What we can't do is pretend the problem doesn't exist because if we do, more people will be victims of violence, more kids will end up going to prison and society will be even more divided than it is today.

Edited by 7mins (10 Nov 2015 9.39pm)

It seems that when attempting to be reasoned in relation to my parallel which is non racial, not pro black or white, it's an unhelpful hypothetical. I'm not being 'liberal'. My comment is not pro black or pro white it addresses that fact that we fixate on the group rather than the individual in a way we'd never do with white people, on account that most people are white.

When you applaud a hypothetical, one which injects violence of black men into a scenario out of nowhere, that's fine (see attached).

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 6.35pm)

I don't see that your statement means anything beyond an intellectual point. You can employ an argument for most circumstances but it will be meaningless in the cold light of day.

As for your final sentence, you are not comparing like for like. There is a different context of those statements.
You are the one making it about racism. I am talking about simple unbiased realities. The sort you can illustrate with official statistics. No prejudice, no propaganda, no politics, just simple facts.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (10 Nov 2015 6.48pm)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (10 Nov 2015 6.48pm)

Well in the previous post it was all about how important your personal experience was. Your personal experience is no more meaningful than anyone elses, and as no such is no better measure of anything.

As for facts again, most bankers are white. People have been foaming at the mouth at bankers for the past few years. Do we then blame 'whites' for financial collapse? Most school shootings in the US are committed by white people. Do you fixate on how this is a 'white problem' that whites are responsible for? No, 'nor should we'.

When a crime is committed by a white person here we hold them personally to account for that, when it's committed by a black person we blame the demographic. The same is true of other minorities too. It's unhelpful. We have a system of law. If someone commits a crime, arrest them, if they don't stop puttting them under the microscope.

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 7.02pm)

OK. I doubt that the colour of bankers is a factor, just their domination of that sector. It would be highly surprising therefore if dodgy bankers were not mostly white because the vast majority of bankers are white. School shootings are statistically irrelevant. So why then do we think that most street crime is committed by a minority group of the population ? There must be a reason and what are we doing about it ? Because when you only make up 3% of a population and you still commit double the crime then I think that's a problem that needs addressing don't you ?
Philosophical arguments are great and often very reasonable but they don't really fix the problem.
In this case, with respect, your comparisons are totally flawed.

You've done is found reasons to excuse why being white is irrelevent in those cases. Almost all school and mass shootings in the US are carried out by white teenagers. That's a fact too. It doesn't become a non fact just because on a larger scale most gun crime is carried out by others. We are arbitrarily excusing and exempting judgement upon a group of people because we don't personally feel it's a reflection on ourselves. Maybe we should extend that special exception to all.

It's clear that lots of factors, such as poverty and the like contribute to crime and we can do our best to lift people out of that. People feeling alientated from the mainstream likely contributes too and being fixated on due to race is an issue. That's what some have done here.

The sensible way to approach this thread would've been to condemn these two arseholes and throw the book at them whether it was for the attack or for any provable racial aspect too. You don't seem to appreciate that most black people never commit crime and as such where you feel they should be placed under the microscope, I appreciate that endless fruitless fixation on peoples race only for the negative can itself cause very real problems and likely factors into the current situation.

I'm sorry but neither of those factors are excuses for street crime. There are plenty of poor White and Asians etc and to say that back people are alienated from the mainstream is just ridiculous.
Your comparisons on school shootings are flawed because the vast majority of people in America are white, therefore a rare occurrence like a school shooting is highly likely to be committed by a white person. You are not helping your argument with daft comparisons.

You don't seem to want to tackle the undeniable problem that the black community has. Many people on the receiving end of knife crime are black themselves. Doesn't that bother you ? Would you rather just continue to dress it up ?

It's one thing highlighting stats it's another using them against a whole race. That's what several comments have done here. The implication here is that what TUX said wasn't racist. You have placed a stamp of approval on a post that suggests that despite that belief, if it was said to a black man he would probably visit violence upon you and that would then prove TUX's point. It's the stuff of fantasy, this idea that any given black man is violent and people do not deserve to be talked about as if they are.

You've dismissed a type of crime that is almost exclusively white as 'irrelevant'. You've dismissed poverty as an issue. You are saying that alientation isn't a factor and it's 'ridiculous' to say so - nice that you now speak on behalf of other communtiies too. You are dismissing all external factors many of which likely play at least some part as 'daft'. You clearly know your stuff. What are you actually saying about black people then? For you to know that something 100% isn't the answer you must therefore have a very good idea of what is? Enlighten us with your racial tightrope walking.

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 8.50pm)

Your post starts with emotive nonsense and carries on in the same vein. I can't respond to meaningless accusatory arguments which ignore reality. I have been very clear in my comments and I would stand by all of them. What I'm not going to do chew the same fat all night.
Also I have not approved anything racist that is also nonsense.If you don't like the posts you keep referencing then take that up with the people who posted them.

I asked you what this is leading up to. As I stated:

You've dismissed a type of crime that is almost exclusively white as 'irrelevant'. You've dismissed poverty as an issue. You are saying that alientation isn't a factor and it's 'ridiculous' to say so. You are dismissing external factors many of which likely play at least some part as 'daft'.

Those are facts too so as I stated, what are you actually saying about black people and crime? You seem to somehow know as fact that these eternal elements do not factor in. Hence you must have an idea of what does?

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 9.13pm)

I'm dismissing your comparisons because they are not valid. If you can't see why, then I'm not spelling it out again.
And I would say that the black community is best placed to understand and sort out it's own problems. Of course if the level of denial you demonstrate is the norm then that is unlikely to happen any time soon.

Good night.

You actually said that it's ridiculous to say that the black community feels alienated, so like I said before you are the one who feels able to speak on their behalf. So much for listening.

Maybe when a thread about a teenage girl hitting an old lady gets contorted into one about 'black men stab stats' we need to start thinking about the arbitrary knee jerk connections we make in our head. Most black people are obviously as disgusted by this incident as we are.

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 9.28pm)

All decent humans are disgusted by this.
You make some good points. The reason that black people are making up a high % of the crime stats could well be down to alienation, it could be a result of racism form the 80's, it could be that Afro-Caribbean culture has certain negative elements.
The truth is probably a combination of all the above (with some added extra reasons).
What we can't do is pretend the problem doesn't exist because if we do, more people will be victims of violence, more kids will end up going to prison and society will be even more divided than it is today.

Edited by 7mins (10 Nov 2015 9.39pm)

What the absolute f*** is all this s***?

I certainly agree. I think it's down to many factors and that blame isn't all 'over here' or 'over there'. I'm just not having it that any factor that relates to alienation is nonsense and believe we need to listen to communities, not just tell them how they should feel. I stand by my belief that fixating on race at every given opportunity doesn't help, or at least when it's done in a hamfisted way like it was here. We ought to put more money into getting family members of victims of knife crime into schools and the like. That is a reality check that stays with you.

Edited by bilbo (10 Nov 2015 10.08pm)

Much like you, I can't keep carrying this on forever. I think some parts of our discussion took an unfortunate turn. My previous post best sums up how I feel

"I think it's down to many factors and that blame isn't all 'over here' or 'over there'. I'm just not having it that any factor that relates to alienation is nonsense and believe we need to listen to communities, not just tell them how they should feel. I stand by my belief that fixating on race at every given opportunity doesn't help, or at least when it's done in a hamfisted way like it was here. We ought to put more money into getting family members of victims of knife crime into schools and the like. That is a reality check that stays with you."

My mum was a sectarian at Barclays bank

Lend me a Tenor

31 May to 3 June 2017

John McIntosh Arts Centre
London Oratory School
SW6 1RX

with Superfly in the chorus
[Link]

^
Fair point...I've always found the "whatabouty" argument stupid.
I think admitting there is a problem is the only way we can stand a chance of fixing it. If white Teddy boys were committing crime now, I would be open to discussing how to stop that section of society doing bad things, I certainly wouldn't be deflecting.