The left and Jewish people

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Apr 16 10.21am
It's hard for people to separate Judaism from Zionism and Judaism from Israel and it's government simply because Israel exists only because of the Jewish faith and Zionism. In my view, Israel should not exist, It was a poorly conceived idea to appease Jews after the Holocaust and one that got quickly out of control. Anyone with a conscience must sympathise with the plight of Jews in WW2 but the allies just created one disaster from another. History supports my attitude, When we try to separate Zionism from Judaism and the Israeli government it is reasonable to do so in the present but from a historical perspective the whole situation was created by faith and a desire to be separate. The whole of Jewish history seems to be about their desire to be separate from "Gentiles" and everyone else wishing to be rid of them. And this is where we have come to as a result. The scourge of religion and religious delusion has a heavy human price.
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Apr 16 10.21am

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It's hard for people to separate Judaism from Zionism and Judaism from Israel and it's government simply because Israel exists only because of the Jewish faith and Zionism.
In my view, Israel should not exist, It was a poorly conceived idea to appease Jews after the Holocaust and one that got quickly out of control. Anyone with a conscience must sympathise with the plight of Jews in WW2 but the allies just created one disaster from another. History supports my attitude,
When we try to separate Zionism from Judaism and the Israeli government it is reasonable to do so in the present but from a historical perspective the whole situation was created by faith and a desire to be separate. The whole of Jewish history seems to be about their desire to be separate from "Gentiles" and everyone else wishing to be rid of them. And this is where we have come to as a result.

The scourge of religion and religious delusion has a heavy human price.

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legaleagle 30 Apr 16 10.33am
That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value. The zionists who created modern day zionism were secular and not motivated by religious belief. Rather, by "ethnic" identity and nascent "nationalism".The sole reason for it was as a perceived solution to centuries of getting utterly shafted and forced to be "separate"as fall guys on behalf of good old christian civilisation.(because of their ethnicty/religion).Being sick of this way of life and having despaired of being allowed to integrate fully due to pervasive anti semitism,particularly in central and eastern europe,they looked for another solution,self determination in their "ancestral" homeland from which the good old christian Romans had ever so kindly ethnically cleansed them.....which of course then tragically led to its own innate contradictions and problems... So,while there is a valid debate about the rights and wrongs of zionism,and the rights and wrongs of Israel, and the rights and wrongs of a state in place along the apartheid like lines sought by Hamas,its not a debate based on your underlying premises. As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee.... Edited by legaleagle (30 Apr 2016 10.44am)
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legaleagle

30 Apr 16 10.33am

That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value.

The zionists who created modern day zionism were secular and not motivated by religious belief. Rather, by "ethnic" identity and nascent "nationalism".The sole reason for it was as a perceived solution to centuries of getting utterly shafted and forced to be "separate"as fall guys on behalf of good old christian civilisation.(because of their ethnicty/religion).Being sick of this way of life and having despaired of being allowed to integrate fully due to pervasive anti semitism,particularly in central and eastern europe,they looked for another solution,self determination in their "ancestral" homeland from which the good old christian Romans had ever so kindly ethnically cleansed them.....which of course then tragically led to its own innate contradictions and problems...

So,while there is a valid debate about the rights and wrongs of zionism,and the rights and wrongs of Israel, and the rights and wrongs of a state in place along the apartheid like lines sought by Hamas,its not a debate based on your underlying premises.

As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee....

Edited by legaleagle (30 Apr 2016 10.44am)

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Hoof Hearted 30 Apr 16 11.11am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It's hard for people to separate Judaism from Zionism and Judaism from Israel and it's government simply because Israel exists only because of the Jewish faith and Zionism. In my view, Israel should not exist, It was a poorly conceived idea to appease Jews after the Holocaust and one that got quickly out of control. Anyone with a conscience must sympathise with the plight of Jews in WW2 but the allies just created one disaster from another. History supports my attitude, When we try to separate Zionism from Judaism and the Israeli government it is reasonable to do so in the present but from a historical perspective the whole situation was created by faith and a desire to be separate. The whole of Jewish history seems to be about their desire to be separate from "Gentiles" and everyone else wishing to be rid of them. And this is where we have come to as a result. The scourge of religion and religious delusion has a heavy human price. I must admit.... the committee that came up with the plan to put Israel slap bang in the middle of the Arabs must have known it was like putting a burning stick in a wasps' nest. It hasn't really worked has it?
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Hoof Hearted 30 Apr 16 11.11am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I must admit.... the committee that came up with the plan to put Israel slap bang in the middle of the Arabs must have known it was like putting a burning stick in a wasps' nest.

It hasn't really worked has it?

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Apr 16 11.28am
Originally posted by legaleagle That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value. The zionists who created modern day zionism were secular and not motivated by religious belief. Rather, by "ethnic" identity and nascent "nationalism".The sole reason for it was as a perceived solution to centuries of getting utterly shafted and forced to be "separate"as fall guys on behalf of good old christian civilisation.(because of their ethnicty/religion).Being sick of this way of life and having despaired of being allowed to integrate fully due to pervasive anti semitism,particularly in central and eastern europe,they looked for another solution,self determination in their "ancestral" homeland from which the good old christian Romans had ever so kindly ethnically cleansed them.....which of course then tragically led to its own innate contradictions and problems... So,while there is a valid debate about the rights and wrongs of zionism,and the rights and wrongs of Israel, and the rights and wrongs of a state in place along the apartheid like lines sought by Hamas,its not a debate based on your underlying premises. As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee.... Edited by legaleagle (30 Apr 2016 10.44am) I'm sorry but I'm not letting you get away with that. Zionism is a direct result of Judaism and the Jewish desire to return to the Biblical interpretation of the promised land. You cannot just conveniently draw a distinction and claim everyone else is ignorant. There is a direct relationship. The fact that there is not a 100% consensus among Jews about Jewish attitudes does not alter history or make the facts change.
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Apr 16 11.28am

Originally posted by legaleagle

That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value.

The zionists who created modern day zionism were secular and not motivated by religious belief. Rather, by "ethnic" identity and nascent "nationalism".The sole reason for it was as a perceived solution to centuries of getting utterly shafted and forced to be "separate"as fall guys on behalf of good old christian civilisation.(because of their ethnicty/religion).Being sick of this way of life and having despaired of being allowed to integrate fully due to pervasive anti semitism,particularly in central and eastern europe,they looked for another solution,self determination in their "ancestral" homeland from which the good old christian Romans had ever so kindly ethnically cleansed them.....which of course then tragically led to its own innate contradictions and problems...

As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee....

Edited by legaleagle (30 Apr 2016 10.44am)

I'm sorry but I'm not letting you get away with that.

Zionism is a direct result of Judaism and the Jewish desire to return to the Biblical interpretation of the promised land.
You cannot just conveniently draw a distinction and claim everyone else is ignorant. There is a direct relationship.
The fact that there is not a 100% consensus among Jews about Jewish attitudes does not alter history or make the facts change.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 30 Apr 16 11.31am
Originally posted by legaleagle That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value. The zionists who created modern day zionism were secular and not motivated by religious belief. Rather, by "ethnic" identity and nascent "nationalism".The sole reason for it was as a perceived solution to centuries of getting utterly shafted and forced to be "separate"as fall guys on behalf of good old christian civilisation.(because of their ethnicty/religion).Being sick of this way of life and having despaired of being allowed to integrate fully due to pervasive anti semitism,particularly in central and eastern europe,they looked for another solution,self determination in their "ancestral" homeland from which the good old christian Romans had ever so kindly ethnically cleansed them.....which of course then tragically led to its own innate contradictions and problems... So,while there is a valid debate about the rights and wrongs of zionism,and the rights and wrongs of Israel, and the rights and wrongs of a state in place along the apartheid like lines sought by Hamas,its not a debate based on your underlying premises. As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee.... The Kibbutz movement. The problem was that those settlements that weren't such an issue with the Arabs at the time, kept spreading. It might have been a land in decay, but it was their home. Not all Jews agree with Israeli policies but you do get the impression some are encouraged to wave the flag about in patriotism for their identity when they either have little do with the country or don't even know its direction past and present. On the one hand I understand the Israeli paranoia, surrounded by citizens of countries who hate them. 'Israel must exist' - that's from people in the UK and US. But on the other hand there's the oppression and land grabbing. Where's Tony Blair and Gordon Brown when you need them? They can save the world. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 30 Apr 16 11.31am

Originally posted by legaleagle

That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value.

The zionists who created modern day zionism were secular and not motivated by religious belief. Rather, by "ethnic" identity and nascent "nationalism".The sole reason for it was as a perceived solution to centuries of getting utterly shafted and forced to be "separate"as fall guys on behalf of good old christian civilisation.(because of their ethnicty/religion).Being sick of this way of life and having despaired of being allowed to integrate fully due to pervasive anti semitism,particularly in central and eastern europe,they looked for another solution,self determination in their "ancestral" homeland from which the good old christian Romans had ever so kindly ethnically cleansed them.....which of course then tragically led to its own innate contradictions and problems...

As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee....

The Kibbutz movement. The problem was that those settlements that weren't such an issue with the Arabs at the time, kept spreading. It might have been a land in decay, but it was their home.

Not all Jews agree with Israeli policies but you do get the impression some are encouraged to wave the flag about in patriotism for their identity when they either have little do with the country or don't even know its direction past and present.

On the one hand I understand the Israeli paranoia, surrounded by citizens of countries who hate them. 'Israel must exist' - that's from people in the UK and US. But on the other hand there's the oppression and land grabbing. Where's Tony Blair and Gordon Brown when you need them? They can save the world.

COYP

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Apr 16 11.43am
Originally posted by legaleagle That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value. The zionists who created modern day zionism were secular and not motivated by religious belief. Rather, by "ethnic" identity and nascent "nationalism".The sole reason for it was as a perceived solution to centuries of getting utterly shafted and forced to be "separate"as fall guys on behalf of good old christian civilisation.(because of their ethnicty/religion).Being sick of this way of life and having despaired of being allowed to integrate fully due to pervasive anti semitism,particularly in central and eastern europe,they looked for another solution,self determination in their "ancestral" homeland from which the good old christian Romans had ever so kindly ethnically cleansed them.....which of course then tragically led to its own innate contradictions and problems... So,while there is a valid debate about the rights and wrongs of zionism,and the rights and wrongs of Israel, and the rights and wrongs of a state in place along the apartheid like lines sought by Hamas,its not a debate based on your underlying premises. As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee.... Edited by legaleagle (30 Apr 2016 10.44am) This is rather typical of religious groups in general to blame everyone else for their woes. I'm sure the Nazis blames everyone else, including the Jews, for the state of Germany after WW1. Religion has an identity. It has clothing, it has culture, it has custom that separates it form other people. You cannot then blame everyone else for isolating you when you isolate yourself by clinging on to religious doctrine and tradition. It is the minority who have to adapt and integrate in their own interests regardless of their beliefs or ethnicity. Tolerance will always run second to self interest and when one group, the ones with the power, takes that to an extreme you have something as terrible as the Holocaust or as some might note, the displacement of Palestinians.
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Apr 16 11.43am

Originally posted by legaleagle

That is where you unfortunately seemingly have a lack of knowledge,and in so doing are in danger of taking some hoary old canards at face value.

As for the old hoary line about hard to separate Jews per se wherever they may be from zionists,because zionists are Jews,pleeaaaseeee....

Edited by legaleagle (30 Apr 2016 10.44am)

This is rather typical of religious groups in general to blame everyone else for their woes. I'm sure the Nazis blames everyone else, including the Jews, for the state of Germany after WW1.
Religion has an identity. It has clothing, it has culture, it has custom that separates it form other people. You cannot then blame everyone else for isolating you when you isolate yourself by clinging on to religious doctrine and tradition. It is the minority who have to adapt and integrate in their own interests regardless of their beliefs or ethnicity.
Tolerance will always run second to self interest and when one group, the ones with the power, takes that to an extreme you have something as terrible as the Holocaust or as some might note, the displacement of Palestinians.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 30 Apr 16 11.53am
All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to. I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days...
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 30 Apr 16 11.53am

All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to.
I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days...

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 30 Apr 16 11.54am
Originally posted by nickgusset All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to. I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days... To be fair. Ken is the gift that just keeps giving the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 30 Apr 16 11.54am

Originally posted by nickgusset

All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to.
I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days...

To be fair. Ken is the gift that just keeps giving

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 30 Apr 16 11.56am
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch To be fair. Ken is the gift that just keeps giving Goes without saying...
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 30 Apr 16 11.56am

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

To be fair. Ken is the gift that just keeps giving

Goes without saying...

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Apr 16 12.03pm
Originally posted by nickgusset All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to. I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days... It must be a Tory plot. They are feeding Ken something to make him even more of a prat than he is already. And to think, only a few years ago the wisdom of the Left was holding him up as the Messiah of London. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Apr 16 12.03pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to.
I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days...

It must be a Tory plot. They are feeding Ken something to make him even more of a prat than he is already.

And to think, only a few years ago the wisdom of the Left was holding him up as the Messiah of London.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

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johnfirewall 30 Apr 16 1.53pm
Originally posted by nickgusset All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to. I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days... Are these the sort of problems you think the multiple recent accusations of Anti-semitism are overshadowing? Because this is what I've just seen from the Socialist Worker morons on the High Street: 'End the Tory Rule' 'Migrants welcome' 'The 96 were killed by the Tories' 'Stop Islamophobia' I've no doubt the last one was intentionally selected to undermine the vile attitudes this thread was intended to address.
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johnfirewall

30 Apr 16 1.53pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

All deflecting away from more important issues in the press. They're making more of the situation than they really need to.
I wonder what bad news has been buried over the last couple of days...

Are these the sort of problems you think the multiple recent accusations of Anti-semitism are overshadowing? Because this is what I've just seen from the Socialist Worker morons on the High Street:

'End the Tory Rule'
'Migrants welcome'
'The 96 were killed by the Tories'
'Stop Islamophobia'

I've no doubt the last one was intentionally selected to undermine the vile attitudes this thread was intended to address.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 30 Apr 16 10.20pm
Originally posted by johnfirewall Are these the sort of problems you think the multiple recent accusations of Anti-semitism are overshadowing? Because this is what I've just seen from the Socialist Worker morons on the High Street: 'End the Tory Rule' 'Migrants welcome' 'The 96 were killed by the Tories' 'Stop Islamophobia' I've no doubt the last one was intentionally selected to undermine the vile attitudes this thread was intended to address. How many cases have their been in the last few weeks? Six maybe seven. Out of how many labour members? How quickly has each case been dealt with, the slowest was 1 day. The press are having a field day by over exaggerating the problem in order to taint labour the week before an election. Edited by nickgusset (30 Apr 2016 10.20pm)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 30 Apr 16 10.20pm

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Are these the sort of problems you think the multiple recent accusations of Anti-semitism are overshadowing? Because this is what I've just seen from the Socialist Worker morons on the High Street:

'End the Tory Rule'
'Migrants welcome'
'The 96 were killed by the Tories'
'Stop Islamophobia'

I've no doubt the last one was intentionally selected to undermine the vile attitudes this thread was intended to address.

How many cases have their been in the last few weeks? Six maybe seven. Out of how many labour members? How quickly has each case been dealt with, the slowest was 1 day.

The press are having a field day by over exaggerating the problem in order to taint labour the week before an election.

Edited by nickgusset (30 Apr 2016 10.20pm)

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