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Machete attack in Germany

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Jul 16 5.42pm

Originally posted by dannyh

Please explain how allowing 800,000 unchecked immigrants into your country is "pragmatic" It's f***ing insane

Edited by dannyh (25 Jul 2016 4.04pm)

Because they have an idealised view of shinny happy people smiling migrants, and a equally idealised stupid idea of the reality of the German people.

Same as all nationalists, they have substituted their ideals for reality.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Jul 16 5.47pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That isn't going too well on the continent is it.

2. Once again you suggest pandering to religion. 100% no to that. What alienates Muslims is the own religion.

All European countries can close borders independently. The problems we have mostly caused in the Middle East are not going away any time soon if ever. I don't think we can wait for that do you?

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (25 Jul 2016 5.17pm)

Its a practical reality. It doesn't necessarily have to be along religious grounds, you can change social acceptance, stereotypes held, public perception, integration (and it can change by itself).

But if you don't deal with the root causes that result in people starting down the path that ends in radicalisation, then you won't stop radicalisation among your own population - and that really is the key here (and across most of Europe) that the terror isn't imported, its been home grown.

And part of understanding what alienates Muslims involves talking to them, particually young muslims.

 


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View elgrande's Profile elgrande Flag bedford 25 Jul 16 5.47pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

And yet IS said at the time,that they would use the opportunity to send terrorist s over at the same time as the refugees.....
Could not stand Cameron but at least he did it the right way and take families from the refugee camps.
There will be more and more of theses...they are getting their arises kicked by the Kurds and Iraqi forces so they resort to being cowardly c***s.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Jul 16 5.55pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That isn't going too well on the continent is it.

2. Once again you suggest pandering to religion. 100% no to that. What alienates Muslims is the own religion.

All European countries can close borders independently. The problems we have mostly caused in the Middle East are not going away any time soon if ever. I don't think we can wait for that do you?

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (25 Jul 2016 5.17pm)

Intelligence is only so much use. And in incidents where 'one person' acts alone, or without a cell and cell structure, its largely meaningless.

In truth, if someone decides to drive a truck for allah through a crowd, there isn't really anything you can do to prevent it. In order to catch terrorists prior to the 'act' you need a conspiracy.

Problem is, terrorist groups, over time, switch more from being organisations into being loosely affiliated, self financed, independent groups associated to an idea. At which point, luck is more a factor in catching them, than intelligence.

Which seems to be more what we've been seeing recently. Not carefully planned IS operations, but what are generally called Lone Wolf terrorism.

Problematic, as it doesn't seem that refugees are particularly deterred by the idea of dying whilst illegally crossing borders. Shutting the 'borders' will just create a refugee crisis in countries of first receipt, who if everyone leaves them 'to it' will just 'encourage' people to cross their borders.

The reality of Europe is that closed borders isn't really viable, especially when you start talking Holland, Belgium, Austria, Italy, France... The practical reality is that these countries have too much in the way of uncontrolled borders, and no real check points, and no means of actually closing down a border without isolating themselves economically.

 


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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 25 Jul 16 5.57pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its a practical reality. It doesn't necessarily have to be along religious grounds, you can change social acceptance, stereotypes held, public perception, integration (and it can change by itself).

But if you don't deal with the root causes that result in people starting down the path that ends in radicalisation, then you won't stop radicalisation among your own population - and that really is the key here (and across most of Europe) that the terror isn't imported, its been home grown.

And part of understanding what alienates Muslims involves talking to them, particually young muslims.


You can talk to them all you like but the fact is that it is a problem of their own making. They find themselves in the West and they still want to cling on to a religion that alienates them from the majority.
If they are third generation then there are no excuses.
This is a prime example of blaming everyone else for self inflicted problems. Start being a British citizen first and a Muslim second and the alienation might just go away.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Jul 16 5.58pm

Originally posted by elgrande

And yet IS said at the time,that they would use the opportunity to send terrorist s over at the same time as the refugees.....
Could not stand Cameron but at least he did it the right way and take families from the refugee camps.
There will be more and more of theses...they are getting their arises kicked by the Kurds and Iraqi forces so they resort to being cowardly c***s.

Which is what we should have been doing since the first year of the camps, taking people from the camps, not leaving the problem to escalate for several years and creating very desperate people who would do anything to try to get to a life outside the squalid hole that the camps (and the people who prey on people in the camps) had become.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Jul 16 6.06pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


You can talk to them all you like but the fact is that it is a problem of their own making. They find themselves in the West and they still want to cling on to a religion that alienates them from the majority.
If they are third generation then there are no excuses.
This is a prime example of blaming everyone else for self inflicted problems. Start being a British citizen first and a Muslim second and the alienation might just go away.

Nice rhetoric, but lets face it, that isn't even remotely pragmatic. Individuals have multifaceted ideas of who and what they are, along with different values of importance - Only some of which are defined by them (others are defined by how others react to them).

You might as well say, well if people didn't bother with religion, the world would be a better place. Ultimately, its pie in the sky idealism.

Everyone blames everyone else for their problems - its a fact of life. The right wing is built on the ideals of blaming migrants, the poor, teachers, the young, benefits etc for their ills.

The left is just the same. Christians probably blame secularism for x, and athiests blame religion for y.

Truth is, people generally have a scapegoat for their 'problems' in life, rather than doing something about it. Like blaming migration for terrorism....

 


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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 25 Jul 16 6.07pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Intelligence is only so much use. And in incidents where 'one person' acts alone, or without a cell and cell structure, its largely meaningless.

In truth, if someone decides to drive a truck for allah through a crowd, there isn't really anything you can do to prevent it. In order to catch terrorists prior to the 'act' you need a conspiracy.

Problem is, terrorist groups, over time, switch more from being organisations into being loosely affiliated, self financed, independent groups associated to an idea. At which point, luck is more a factor in catching them, than intelligence.

Which seems to be more what we've been seeing recently. Not carefully planned IS operations, but what are generally called Lone Wolf terrorism.

Problematic, as it doesn't seem that refugees are particularly deterred by the idea of dying whilst illegally crossing borders. Shutting the 'borders' will just create a refugee crisis in countries of first receipt, who if everyone leaves them 'to it' will just 'encourage' people to cross their borders.

The reality of Europe is that closed borders isn't really viable, especially when you start talking Holland, Belgium, Austria, Italy, France... The practical reality is that these countries have too much in the way of uncontrolled borders, and no real check points, and no means of actually closing down a border without isolating themselves economically.

Then that has to change. If it was a traditional war, the borders would be defended real quick.
This is really a question of balance. At what point do other considerations become secondary to the defence of a country>
How many people must die before attitudes change?
Can you put a figure on it? Because in your world of logical pragmatism there must be a practical answer to that question.
And we haven't even moved on to the potentially irreversible damage we are doing to our societies by allowing a backward aggressive religion like Islam into our countries. If there was ever an example of bringing problems on ourselves this is it. Sometimes you have to stop playing the liberal and recognise that not all belief systems are deserving of tolerance because they are themselves intolerant.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Jul 16 6.13pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Then that has to change. If it was a traditional war, the borders would be defended real quick.
This is really a question of balance. At what point do other considerations become secondary to the defence of a country>
How many people must die before attitudes change?
Can you put a figure on it? Because in your world of logical pragmatism there must be a practical answer to that question.
And we haven't even moved on to the potentially irreversible damage we are doing to our societies by allowing a backward aggressive religion like Islam into our countries. If there was ever an example of bringing problems on ourselves this is it. Sometimes you have to stop playing the liberal and recognise that not all belief systems are deserving of tolerance because they are themselves intolerant.

Which is an intolerant belief system. Because excepting a few f**ktards the problem isn't really prolific in the UK, where the casualties of Islamic terrorism is about three days of road traffic in 15 years. On the basis of that, you'd exclude any one who is Muslim, because you assume that all Islam is backwards and aggressive - even though I've never actually meet any Muslim who is that way inclined.

 


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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 25 Jul 16 6.15pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Nice rhetoric, but lets face it, that isn't even remotely pragmatic. Individuals have multifaceted ideas of who and what they are, along with different values of importance - Only some of which are defined by them (others are defined by how others react to them).

You might as well say, well if people didn't bother with religion, the world would be a better place. Ultimately, its pie in the sky idealism.

Everyone blames everyone else for their problems - its a fact of life. The right wing is built on the ideals of blaming migrants, the poor, teachers, the young, benefits etc for their ills.

The left is just the same. Christians probably blame secularism for x, and athiests blame religion for y.

Truth is, people generally have a scapegoat for their 'problems' in life, rather than doing something about it. Like blaming migration for terrorism....


I was with you until the last bit. Migration is not the cause of terrorism but those who deal in it are here because of migration. Surely you can't reasonably deny that. Plenty of people were predicting exactly what would happen and now it is happening some people are still rationalising it.

I would ask again. How many people will have to die before they admit that it was an error of judgment.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 25 Jul 16 6.26pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Which is an intolerant belief system. Because excepting a few f**ktards the problem isn't really prolific in the UK, where the casualties of Islamic terrorism is about three days of road traffic in 15 years. On the basis of that, you'd exclude any one who is Muslim, because you assume that all Islam is backwards and aggressive - even though I've never actually meet any Muslim who is that way inclined.

Even you must have cringed when you wrote that.

I'll be interested to hear your comparisons between the Battle of the Somme casualties and domestic accidents since 1914.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Jul 16 6.47pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Even you must have cringed when you wrote that.

I'll be interested to hear your comparisons between the Battle of the Somme casualties and domestic accidents since 1914.

Its more or less true. Since 9/11, the number of Britons killed by Islamic terrorism, equates roughly to the average number of people killed in Road Traffic incidents in three and a half days (specifically in 2007).

To put WWI in a context, it has nothing on two years of Spanish Influenza, between 1920-22.

An interesting side note, is despite the threat of terrorism, homicide rates in the UK are dropping quite dramatically.


 


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