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Bedroom tax

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 4.48pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm

How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax


Can you tell the newspapers this please.

This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason?

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)


As happened with the "Poll Tax"

Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).


The bedroom tax is a colloquialism, and what the reduction of benefits due to 'spare' room(s) has become known as. So rather than argue the semantics of whether it really is a tax or not, which you have told us it isn't, it detracts from the point of this thread.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 4.50pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.11pm

This bill is not the smartest way to cut benefits / save money but what really grinds my gears Nick is that you always seem to want to punish people who have done well.


Where the fack have I ever written on here that I want to punish people who have done well for themselves?
You wrote 'seems' which is fair enough, however, I do feel that you are apportioning things that ain't there.

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 21 Feb 13 5.00pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.48pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm

How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax


Can you tell the newspapers this please.

This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason?

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)


As happened with the "Poll Tax"

Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).


The bedroom tax is a colloquialism, and what the reduction of benefits due to 'spare' room(s) has become known as. So rather than argue the semantics of whether it really is a tax or not, which you have told us it isn't, it detracts from the point of this thread.

Labelling it a tax when it isn't, whether you do it or the media, detracts the point of the debate entirely as that is the crux of it.

 


Optimistic as ever

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 5.06pm

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 4.05pm

It is absolute bollocks that 25-30% of the children anywhere in the UK are in actual poverty, not the lack of PC/Broadband/Sky definition, the actual unclean, unclothed and unfed definition. Why do you swallow such nonsense, nick?

I got my info from here [Link]
a report from the child poverty action group. endchildpoverty.org

Child poverty has no hard and fast definition...

from [Link]

The European Union's working definition of poverty is:

'Persons, families and groups of persons whose resources (material, cultural and social) are so limited as to exclude them from the minimum acceptable way of life in the Member State to which they belong'.

The UK Government, following the consultation on "Measuring Child Poverty", set out three approaches to examining and measuring child poverty in the UK over time:

Absolute low income: this indicator measures whether the poorest families are seeing their income rise in real terms. The level is fixed as equal to the relative low-income threshold for the baseline year of 1998-99 expressed in today's prices;

Relative low income: this measures whether the poorest families are keeping pace with the growth of incomes in the economy as a whole. This indicator measures the number of children living in households below 60 % of contemporary median equivalised household income. It compares the incomes of the less well off in a society to that of the 'typical household' so threshold changes as wealth of society changes ('moving poverty line').

Material deprivation and low income combined: this indicator provides a wider measure of people's living standards. This indicator measures the number of children living in households that are both materially deprived and have an income below 70% of contemporary median equivalised household income. Material deprivation looks at living standards such as:

A holiday away from home at least one week a year with family
Swimming at least once a month
Friends around for tea / snack once a fortnight
Celebrations on special occasions e.g. birthdays
Going on a school trip at least once a term


According to our definition, children are living in severe poverty if they live in a household with an income of below 50 per cent of the median (after housing costs), and where both adults and children lack at least one basic necessity, and either adults or children or both groups lack at least two basic necessities.

So no mention of Sky/Broadband etc, however if you think that everyone has Sky /cable or broadband then you are blinkered.

[Link]
has some facts about those with home internet access..

While the majority of people in the UK have access to the internet, there are still 10 million people who do not.

Of these people, 4 million are are the most socially and economically disadvantaged in the country.

49% of people without access are in the lowest socio-economic groups (DE)


70% of people who live in social housing aren't online

It has to be said that this research was carried out in 2009 so not entirely accurate, but I'm sure it's still a fairly reasonable representation.
The ons state that 80% of households had internet access [Link] however it doesn't break it down into socio-economic groups.

Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 5.10pm)

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 5.09pm

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 5.00pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.48pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm

How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax


Can you tell the newspapers this please.

This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason?

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)


As happened with the "Poll Tax"

Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).


The bedroom tax is a colloquialism, and what the reduction of benefits due to 'spare' room(s) has become known as. So rather than argue the semantics of whether it really is a tax or not, which you have told us it isn't, it detracts from the point of this thread.

Labelling it a tax when it isn't, whether you do it or the media, detracts the point of the debate entirely as that is the crux of it.

OK, in future when I refer to bedroom tax, I actually mean the reduction of benefits due to having a spare room(s).

 

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View Johnny Eagles's Profile Johnny Eagles Flag berlin 21 Feb 13 5.11pm Send a Private Message to Johnny Eagles Add Johnny Eagles as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 3.55pm
Labour (much as I deplore them) did a lot t get thousands of children out of poverty. This is being reversed by the current lot.
The bedroom 'tax' is going to affect children and the disabled, yet according to you, this cannot be mentioned in a debate about the effects because it is sentimental and devalues the argument. How can one argue against something with you Johnny if they are not allowed to mention the people it directly affects?

I didn't say don't mention them. Just try and do so without all the heartstrings crap. Any cut to benefits causes people to lose money. Welcome to the real world. But picking on one individual case and using it to criticise a policy on the basis of emotion rather than reason and logic is sentimentalism, plain and simple.

And how the f*ck did we get onto child poverty? I'll tell you how - because you randomly decided to whack it into the mix because you think it supports your point, when actually it’s irrelevant. Because your argument isn’t based on facts and logic, it’s based on painting the Coalition as milk-snatching, grandads-in-cupboards-locking villains.

Oh and you can choose to believe as many statistics thrown at you by political parties as you like (“Labour reduced child poverty! Iron Production has reached all-time high!”) but I’m going to take them with a mountain of salt, thank you.

 


...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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View JL85's Profile JL85 Flag London,SE9 21 Feb 13 5.12pm Send a Private Message to JL85 Add JL85 as a friend

And now thede bums have a reason to churn out more kids....

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 5.26pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 21 Feb 2013 5.11pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 3.55pm
Labour (much as I deplore them) did a lot t get thousands of children out of poverty. This is being reversed by the current lot.
The bedroom 'tax' is going to affect children and the disabled, yet according to you, this cannot be mentioned in a debate about the effects because it is sentimental and devalues the argument. How can one argue against something with you Johnny if they are not allowed to mention the people it directly affects?

I didn't say don't mention them. Just try and do so without all the heartstrings crap. Any cut to benefits causes people to lose money. Welcome to the real world. But picking on one individual case and using it to criticise a policy on the basis of emotion rather than reason and logic is sentimentalism, plain and simple.

And how the f*ck did we get onto child poverty? I'll tell you how - because you randomly decided to whack it into the mix because you think it supports your point, when actually it’s irrelevant. Because your argument isn’t based on facts and logic, it’s based on painting the Coalition as milk-snatching, grandads-in-cupboards-locking villains.

Oh and you can choose to believe as many statistics thrown at you by political parties as you like (“Labour reduced child poverty! Iron Production has reached all-time high!”) but I’m going to take them with a mountain of salt, thank you.


But the moment I say it affects such and such a group and here's an example, you use the 'heartstrings' trump card. I'm sure I could pull out loads of other examples of people affected (rather than just one individual case) if you want.
As for painting the coalition as 'milk snatchers'. To me, yes they are.

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 21 Feb 13 6.30pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 5.06pm

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 4.05pm

It is absolute bollocks that 25-30% of the children anywhere in the UK are in actual poverty, not the lack of PC/Broadband/Sky definition, the actual unclean, unclothed and unfed definition. Why do you swallow such nonsense, nick?

I got my info from here [Link]
a report from the child poverty action group. endchildpoverty.org

Child poverty has no hard and fast definition...

from [Link]

The European Union's working definition of poverty is:

'Persons, families and groups of persons whose resources (material, cultural and social) are so limited as to exclude them from the minimum acceptable way of life in the Member State to which they belong'.

The UK Government, following the consultation on "Measuring Child Poverty", set out three approaches to examining and measuring child poverty in the UK over time:

Absolute low income: this indicator measures whether the poorest families are seeing their income rise in real terms. The level is fixed as equal to the relative low-income threshold for the baseline year of 1998-99 expressed in today's prices;

Relative low income: this measures whether the poorest families are keeping pace with the growth of incomes in the economy as a whole. This indicator measures the number of children living in households below 60 % of contemporary median equivalised household income. It compares the incomes of the less well off in a society to that of the 'typical household' so threshold changes as wealth of society changes ('moving poverty line').

Material deprivation and low income combined: this indicator provides a wider measure of people's living standards. This indicator measures the number of children living in households that are both materially deprived and have an income below 70% of contemporary median equivalised household income. Material deprivation looks at living standards such as:

A holiday away from home at least one week a year with family
Swimming at least once a month
Friends around for tea / snack once a fortnight
Celebrations on special occasions e.g. birthdays
Going on a school trip at least once a term


According to our definition, children are living in severe poverty if they live in a household with an income of below 50 per cent of the median (after housing costs), and where both adults and children lack at least one basic necessity, and either adults or children or both groups lack at least two basic necessities.

So no mention of Sky/Broadband etc, however if you think that everyone has Sky /cable or broadband then you are blinkered.

[Link]
has some facts about those with home internet access..

While the majority of people in the UK have access to the internet, there are still 10 million people who do not.

Of these people, 4 million are are the most socially and economically disadvantaged in the country.

49% of people without access are in the lowest socio-economic groups (DE)


70% of people who live in social housing aren't online

It has to be said that this research was carried out in 2009 so not entirely accurate, but I'm sure it's still a fairly reasonable representation.
The ons state that 80% of households had internet access [Link] however it doesn't break it down into socio-economic groups.

Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 5.10pm)


Like I said, not actual poverty. That online bit doesn't refer to broadband then, no?

All the bits in bold are just plucked out of thin air, none define poverty.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 21 Feb 13 6.33pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 5.09pm

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 5.00pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.48pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm

How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax


Can you tell the newspapers this please.

This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason?

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)


As happened with the "Poll Tax"

Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).


The bedroom tax is a colloquialism, and what the reduction of benefits due to 'spare' room(s) has become known as. So rather than argue the semantics of whether it really is a tax or not, which you have told us it isn't, it detracts from the point of this thread.

Labelling it a tax when it isn't, whether you do it or the media, detracts the point of the debate entirely as that is the crux of it.

OK, in future when I refer to bedroom tax, I actually mean the reduction of benefits due to having a spare room(s).

Just don't refer to it at all, none of us are buying that it will f*** up the lives of the disabled, elderly, armed services or children etc apart from you.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Y Ddraig Goch's Profile Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 21 Feb 13 6.42pm Send a Private Message to Y Ddraig Goch Add Y Ddraig Goch as a friend

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm

Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm

How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax


Can you tell the newspapers this please.

This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason?

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)

Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)


As happened with the "Poll Tax"

Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).


No I don't but thank you for the offer.

I was referring to the fact that the name that the press attribute is all important i.e. the press and the Opposition referred to the Community Charge as the "Poll Tax" (please note use of quotation marks as it was never actually called that)Once that happened the Tories didn't stand a chance even though everyone accpeted that the Rates system was archaic and unworkable.


 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

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View Y Ddraig Goch's Profile Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 21 Feb 13 6.46pm Send a Private Message to Y Ddraig Goch Add Y Ddraig Goch as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.50pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.11pm

This bill is not the smartest way to cut benefits / save money but what really grinds my gears Nick is that you always seem to want to punish people who have done well.


Where the fack have I ever written on here that I want to punish people who have done well for themselves?
You wrote 'seems' which is fair enough, however, I do feel that you are apportioning things that ain't there.


Nick, apologies if that was not the case but it was the comment below that gave me that impression.

"Many second properties lay empty. Compulsory purchase them and use them as social housing. It's a travesty that there are more housing spaces than people who require housing, it's just they cant access them."


 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

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