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Are YOU a "good" person?

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 23 Feb 15 9.51am

Quote sprites at 23 Feb 2015 12.23am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Feb 2015 10.51pm

Quote ParchmoreEagle at 22 Feb 2015 9.50pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Feb 2015 9.36pm

Quote ParchmoreEagle at 22 Feb 2015 3.30am insist share common ancestry. But the few fossil forms claimed by some evolutionists to represent transitions
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Its a bit of a rambling verse, sounds like Christian Right wingers trying to explain Natural Selection. Also, why is darkness evil, light is simply the presence of photons?

Quote ParchmoreEagle at 22 Feb 2015 3.30am

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

You should take heed, because evolution is a process of creation, which is the manifestation of gods will, denying its truth is rejecting what god has made plain - the divine nature of gods invisible qualities are evolution.

Only very stupid people think that Genesis is a literal truth.

Quote ParchmoreEagle at 22 Feb 2015 3.30am
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

I thought they only had to believe in his son, there's a contradiction in your post. There was nothing about glorification or giving thanks in John 3:16 above.

So which is it.

Quote ParchmoreEagle at 22 Feb 2015 3.30am

Revelation 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Which one of the 230 books of revelation is the true version? Also you do realise its a prophecy of the fall of the Roman empire, right? Its not even remotely about the modern world.

Cut and paste is for weaklings, please present your argument in either Coptic or Koine Greek - The St James translation is a very poor translation.


'Saint James' version? Never heard of that one. Do you mean 'King James'? You're not the academic you're trying to portray yourself as, are you?

That's the one. I'm not an academic, I work in IT. Which is fine, because you're not the messianic saviour you so desire to be.



After years of thinking about it, I now believe it's a case of Creation AND Evolution, or indeed, creation, INCLUDING Evolution...as opposed to Creation OR Evolution.

Indeed, the two are not exclusive, the only issue would be if one takes Gensesis literally, which given the lack of people to actually write it at the time, would be absurd.

There is a fine line between faith and just embracing ignorence. I don't see the two as exclusive, both have entirely different criteria basis. Indeed if you take the idea of God literally creating man, and apply it instead to the creation of man as seperated from the beasts (ie the spiritual and intellectual capacity) the two are entirely compatable.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View reborn's Profile reborn 25 Feb 15 12.36pm Send a Private Message to reborn Add reborn as a friend

There is of course the difference between Micro and Macro Evolution.

Micro Evolution has been proved beyond doubt, and even a Creationist (of which I am one), has to agree with that.

The idea that everything evolved out of a primordial soup is another thing entirely, and still has massive flaws and elements up for debate.

 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Feb 15 1.05pm

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 12.36pm

There is of course the difference between Micro and Macro Evolution.

Micro Evolution has been proved beyond doubt, and even a Creationist (of which I am one), has to agree with that.

The idea that everything evolved out of a primordial soup is another thing entirely, and still has massive flaws and elements up for debate.

Technically speaking that's parthogenesis, the origins of life. Evolutionary theory only deals with what happened after the origin of life and how life forms evolve and change over time (natural selection, sexual selection etc).

Science and Spirituality are entirely separate concepts, linked, occasionally tenuously, by theology.

The means by which life occurred is contested, scientifically, by competing theories. Whilst I don't believe in god, I also don't know how life originated in the first place either.

And I think its ok to not know, and to keep an open mind when it comes to things you don't know (and indeed something to aspire to is to try to understand both the things you don't know and don't believe).

I'm not a religious man, but I have tried to understand religion, spirituality, and in doing so, maybe found a kind of 'Ghost in the Machine' of my own.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Quote Seth at 07 Feb 2015 2.03am

No

No

No it isn't

Ditto


 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

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Quote Catfish at 21 Feb 2015 9.41pm

Well done Jamie. I really could not be bothered knocking down this creationist tosh. I admire your patience. There really is no point trying to start a sensible conversation with people who believe in magic floods, talking snakes, levitation and Giants. It is a bit like believing in Harry Potter.


He didn't though did he? He just threw a load of words at it. Read what he said, I mean really read it?

It's your prerogative to think Creationism is fairy tales, but the science behind Darwin's theory is flawed and has massive holes in it.

The fossil record simply does not back it up

[Link]

The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.” (Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)

 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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Hoof Hearted 25 Feb 15 4.04pm

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 3.53pm

Quote Catfish at 21 Feb 2015 9.41pm

Well done Jamie. I really could not be bothered knocking down this creationist tosh. I admire your patience. There really is no point trying to start a sensible conversation with people who believe in magic floods, talking snakes, levitation and Giants. It is a bit like believing in Harry Potter.


He didn't though did he? He just threw a load of words at it. Read what he said, I mean really read it?

It's your prerogative to think Creationism is fairy tales, but the science behind Darwin's theory is flawed and has massive holes in it.

The fossil record simply does not back it up

[Link]

The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.” (Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)


Evolution might not wholly explain how we got here and may have a bit of work yet to do.... but by fcuk it makes more sense than some great being creating the earth in 7 days... no wait 6.. the lazy toad had a day off, then sometime later he sent his son to sort us out etc etc.

Grow up FFS..... do you still believe in Santa Claus?

 

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Quote Hoof Hearted at 25 Feb 2015 4.04pm

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 3.53pm

Quote Catfish at 21 Feb 2015 9.41pm

Well done Jamie. I really could not be bothered knocking down this creationist tosh. I admire your patience. There really is no point trying to start a sensible conversation with people who believe in magic floods, talking snakes, levitation and Giants. It is a bit like believing in Harry Potter.


He didn't though did he? He just threw a load of words at it. Read what he said, I mean really read it?

It's your prerogative to think Creationism is fairy tales, but the science behind Darwin's theory is flawed and has massive holes in it.

The fossil record simply does not back it up

[Link]

The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.” (Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)


Evolution might not wholly explain how we got here and may have a bit of work yet to do.... but by fcuk it makes more sense than some great being creating the earth in 7 days... no wait 6.. the lazy toad had a day off, then sometime later he sent his son to sort us out etc etc.

Grow up FFS..... do you still believe in Santa Claus?

Childish response, but it beggars the question, why are you so angry?


Edited by reborn (25 Feb 2015 4.32pm)

 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Feb 15 4.55pm

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 3.53pm

Quote Catfish at 21 Feb 2015 9.41pm

Well done Jamie. I really could not be bothered knocking down this creationist tosh. I admire your patience. There really is no point trying to start a sensible conversation with people who believe in magic floods, talking snakes, levitation and Giants. It is a bit like believing in Harry Potter.


He didn't though did he? He just threw a load of words at it. Read what he said, I mean really read it?

It's your prerogative to think Creationism is fairy tales, but the science behind Darwin's theory is flawed and has massive holes in it.

The fossil record simply does not back it up

[Link]

The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.” (Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)

Fossil records demonstrate an overall progressive relationship between species, and a series of developments across time periods between species who's existences do not overlap - As exampled in the extinct Equidae and Equidus Ferrus. Fossil records are too patchy to prove evolution (thus it remains a theory), however the do provide supporting evidence towards the evolutionary development within their scientific taxonomy.

Its also important to note, that when people say 'evolution doesn't demonstrate the appearance of new species' that is incorrect, the development of new species has been observed and recorded, what people actually mean when they say species is class order and family.

This provides support to the concepts and theory of evolutionary development, as you'd call it, micro-evolution.

Fossil records lend credence to scientific taxonomy which in turn provides an argument that supports evolution.

You cannot take fossils as either proof or disprove of evolutionary theory. They're evidence towards disproving a null hypothesis. The abstractive jumps in the records are, as you point out too great, to show anything other than a relationship, on which taxonomy is developed.

For more than that you'd need genetic records, which interestingly do show relationships between species that is consistent with the idea of shared ancestors.

For example, there is sufficient similarity genetically between humans and chimpanzes to show a relationship (a shared ancestor, and establish them as primates), which supports the taxonomical basis of Primates, which is supported by fossil records of primates, and hominids in particular (particually of the Homininae homo of which Homo Sapian is the only surviving species).

Evolution allows for 'outside influences' over the development of a species and lifeforms, it just states that these are environmental, because there is insufficient evidence to support a hypothesis of intelligent design (which itself must have of course occurred randomly, which in turn proves evolution - the intelligence is then no different from us breeding dogs).

Creationism immediately fails scientifically - it has to demonstrate either a creator, or disprove the null hypothesis that there is no need for a creator.

Science isn't really about truth - There are no definable truths, all statements are contextually defined and the truth tends to be something we infer from the assumptions.

Evolution is a theory, not a fact. Its supported by genetics, population genetics, natural and sexual selection and consistant within biology, and supported by evidence from outside of biology.

It does not prove or disprove the existence of God, anymore than it disproves the existence of Thor or Shinto Ancestor Spirits. It simply presents that there is not sufficient evidence to support a literal translation of genesis in which god creates man and all the beasts in 7 days (which incidently fossil records disprove entirely).

Its not single step evolution, which is an established fact - but that's a different matter.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View reborn's Profile reborn 25 Feb 15 4.58pm Send a Private Message to reborn Add reborn as a friend

Sooooo many words Jamie, soooooo many

 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Feb 15 5.03pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 25 Feb 2015 4.04pm

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 3.53pm

Quote Catfish at 21 Feb 2015 9.41pm

Well done Jamie. I really could not be bothered knocking down this creationist tosh. I admire your patience. There really is no point trying to start a sensible conversation with people who believe in magic floods, talking snakes, levitation and Giants. It is a bit like believing in Harry Potter.


He didn't though did he? He just threw a load of words at it. Read what he said, I mean really read it?

It's your prerogative to think Creationism is fairy tales, but the science behind Darwin's theory is flawed and has massive holes in it.

The fossil record simply does not back it up

[Link]

The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.” (Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)


Evolution might not wholly explain how we got here and may have a bit of work yet to do.... but by fcuk it makes more sense than some great being creating the earth in 7 days... no wait 6.. the lazy toad had a day off, then sometime later he sent his son to sort us out etc etc.

Grow up FFS..... do you still believe in Santa Claus?

It doesn't, those are irrelevant to scientific models. Evolution simply is about random selection within environmental influences.

Evolution actually allows for God creating humans from a shared chimpanzee ancestor (or rather several species of humans from that ancestor), provided God occurred through scientifically plausible means.

As this cannot be demonstrated then the aspect of random determinism through environmental fitness which has been demonstrated time and again, fits better.

That's the beauty of science, it isn't about truth, its about what you can show to be probable and the most probable outcome.

There is room for a or many Gods (or goddesses), you just have to reasonably demonstrate a need for god, or the existence of god.

The problem is that people assume that science and religion are about what is true, rather than being about trying to construct models for understanding the experience of existence.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Feb 15 5.17pm

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 4.58pm

Sooooo many words Jamie, soooooo many

Simple answers, are usually wrong. I believe that the more you understand and express as subject the closer you get to the 'truth' (for want of a better word).

Whether that's god, evolution, science, its all really about the resolution of discourses in society. The more we learn, think and interact, the greater our experience of existence becomes.

The greater our experience, the more we understand.

I don't disbelieve in god, gods or goddesses, so much as think they're products of the knowledge of their times. When the Sumer started to write, and probably created the first written language used by 'modern humans', the events in the Old Testament would have been passed through countless generations orally and developed in the telling.

The past is both true and fiction, at the same time, even in the modern age, different generations will adapt stories and events towards their own 'exitential' being, without realizing it.

I always thought that the most prophetic statement in the old testament is the idea that existence begins, with a word. That language, which is the centre of all human experience, is the means by which existence begins and comes around.

Thousands of years later, there is a truth there, that language is more important than almost anything else in human existence, and it is also unique to humans (more or less). Its something we take for granted, and overlook.

But for that person, who first wrote that phrase, they were onto something, which even as an atheist, gets my skin tingling, something that is so sublime, and yet so simple, whilst being incredibly complicated. It can explain what you had for dinner, or how to construct a means by to split atoms.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Hoof Hearted 26 Feb 15 9.48am

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 4.32pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 25 Feb 2015 4.04pm

Quote reborn at 25 Feb 2015 3.53pm

Quote Catfish at 21 Feb 2015 9.41pm

Well done Jamie. I really could not be bothered knocking down this creationist tosh. I admire your patience. There really is no point trying to start a sensible conversation with people who believe in magic floods, talking snakes, levitation and Giants. It is a bit like believing in Harry Potter.


He didn't though did he? He just threw a load of words at it. Read what he said, I mean really read it?

It's your prerogative to think Creationism is fairy tales, but the science behind Darwin's theory is flawed and has massive holes in it.

The fossil record simply does not back it up

[Link]

The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.” (Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)


Evolution might not wholly explain how we got here and may have a bit of work yet to do.... but by fcuk it makes more sense than some great being creating the earth in 7 days... no wait 6.. the lazy toad had a day off, then sometime later he sent his son to sort us out etc etc.

Grow up FFS..... do you still believe in Santa Claus?

Childish response, but it beggars the question, why are you so angry?


Edited by reborn (25 Feb 2015 4.32pm)


You're the one that believes in "fairies" reborn and you say my response is childish?

I'm angry that billions of people waste their time believing this rubbish, and worse... killing each other in the name of religion because they cannot agree which is the true faith....... Mindless!

 

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