Greece on the Edge

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IMpalace London 06 Jul 15 12.37pm
EU now in a pretty impossible position: 1) Let them go bust Suddenly attention turns to other troubled countries (Spain, Italy, Portugal). Any time there is the slight hint of financial troubles in these countries, people will stop lending to these states out of fear they could be the next Greece, in turn keeping them out of financial markets and making them the next Greece. 2) Write off a load of debt Moral hazard issue. Every other nation that owes money (particularly those mentioned above) will no longer agree to austerity on the belief that a load of debt will be written off if worst comes to worst. Either way, hard to see where the EU goes from here.
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IMpalace

London 06 Jul 15 12.37pm

EU now in a pretty impossible position:

1) Let them go bust

Suddenly attention turns to other troubled countries (Spain, Italy, Portugal). Any time there is the slight hint of financial troubles in these countries, people will stop lending to these states out of fear they could be the next Greece, in turn keeping them out of financial markets and making them the next Greece.

2) Write off a load of debt

Moral hazard issue. Every other nation that owes money (particularly those mentioned above) will no longer agree to austerity on the belief that a load of debt will be written off if worst comes to worst.

Either way, hard to see where the EU goes from here.

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chris123 hove actually 06 Jul 15 12.45pm
Quote IMpalace at 06 Jul 2015 12.37pm EU now in a pretty impossible position: 1) Let them go bust Suddenly attention turns to other troubled countries (Spain, Italy, Portugal). Any time there is the slight hint of financial troubles in these countries, people will stop lending to these states out of fear they could be the next Greece, in turn keeping them out of financial markets and making them the next Greece. 2) Write off a load of debt Moral hazard issue. Every other nation that owes money (particularly those mentioned above) will no longer agree to austerity on the belief that a load of debt will be written off if worst comes to worst. Either way, hard to see where the EU goes from here. The debt can't be written off - the best they can hope for is extended terms, Greece is paying rates of interest which bear no resemblence to the inherent credit risk. Leave the union, go back to their own currency and take a generation to pay the money back
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chris123

hove actually 06 Jul 15 12.45pm

Quote IMpalace at 06 Jul 2015 12.37pm

EU now in a pretty impossible position:

1) Let them go bust

2) Write off a load of debt

Either way, hard to see where the EU goes from here.

The debt can't be written off - the best they can hope for is extended terms, Greece is paying rates of interest which bear no resemblence to the inherent credit risk. Leave the union, go back to their own currency and take a generation to pay the money back

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bubble wrap Carparks in South East London 06 Jul 15 12.45pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm [Link] Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure. I can't find the article but I read about the incompetence and wastefulness of the Athens Metro (light rail system). Overpaying cleaners and ticket inspectors who don't even turn up for work and people not paying to use the system, so it runs at a huge loss. Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks. The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out. Totally agree Hoof
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bubble wrap

Carparks in South East London 06 Jul 15 12.45pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm

[Link]

Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure.

I can't find the article but I read about the incompetence and wastefulness of the Athens Metro (light rail system). Overpaying cleaners and ticket inspectors who don't even turn up for work and people not paying to use the system, so it runs at a huge loss.

Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks.

The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out.

Totally agree Hoof

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Red-Blue-Yellow Surrey 06 Jul 15 12.49pm
What's the worst that could happen? I wonder if the Chinese will extend their activities in Africa into Europe if Greece leaves the Euro, buying up the infrastructure - Water, Transport, Telecoms as they have been doing quiteextensively and successfully. If not them, I could see a lot of dodgy Russian involvement. Either of these outcomes could be potentially damaging for European unity. Looking at the big picture, the sensible solution is a 'conditional' wiping off of all debts in the short term to enable a proper recovery to begin and then address the causes before negotiating a longer term, affordable solution. It'll never happen simply because of human nature, which demands it's pound of flesh. I begin to understand why Usuary was regarded as a sin...... I also enjoy posting on: Love Everton Forum, the Acceptable Face of Scouse Football. [Link] twitter.com/LuvEvertonForum Come and give it a look, new members would be lovely. Come and JOIN. Or they'll nick your telly.
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Red-Blue-Yellow

Surrey 06 Jul 15 12.49pm

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What's the worst that could happen?
I wonder if the Chinese will extend their activities in Africa into Europe if Greece leaves the Euro, buying up the infrastructure - Water, Transport, Telecoms as they have been doing quiteextensively and successfully. If not them, I could see a lot of dodgy Russian involvement. Either of these outcomes could be potentially damaging for European unity.

Looking at the big picture, the sensible solution is a 'conditional' wiping off of all debts in the short term to enable a proper recovery to begin and then address the causes before negotiating a longer term, affordable solution. It'll never happen simply because of human nature, which demands it's pound of flesh.
I begin to understand why Usuary was regarded as a sin......

I also enjoy posting on: Love Everton Forum, the Acceptable Face of Scouse Football.
[Link]
twitter.com/LuvEvertonForum
Come and give it a look, new members would be lovely.
Come and JOIN.
Or they'll nick your telly.

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We are goin up! Coulsdon 06 Jul 15 12.51pm
Germany have defaulted on debt seven times in the past century. Seven. The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
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We are goin up!

Coulsdon 06 Jul 15 12.51pm

Send a Private Message to We are goin up!

Germany have defaulted on debt seven times in the past century.

Seven.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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chris123 hove actually 06 Jul 15 12.53pm
Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 06 Jul 2015 12.49pm What's the worst that could happen? I wonder if the Chinese will extend their activities in Africa into Europe if Greece leaves the Euro, buying up the infrastructure - Water, Transport, Telecoms as they have been doing quiteextensively and successfully. If not them, I could see a lot of dodgy Russian involvement. Either of these outcomes could be potentially damaging for European unity. Looking at the big picture, the sensible solution is a 'conditional' wiping off of all debts in the short term to enable a proper recovery to begin and then address the causes before negotiating a longer term, affordable solution. It'll never happen simply because of human nature, which demands it's pound of flesh. I begin to understand why Usuary was regarded as a sin...... Hardly usuary at the rates of interest Greece is paying.
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chris123

hove actually 06 Jul 15 12.53pm

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 06 Jul 2015 12.49pm

Hardly usuary at the rates of interest Greece is paying.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 06 Jul 15 1.01pm
Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 12.51pm Germany have defaulted on debt seven times in the past century. Seven. Yep. Greece even voted for debt relief for Germany post ww2.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 06 Jul 15 1.01pm

Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 12.51pm

Germany have defaulted on debt seven times in the past century.

Seven.

Yep. Greece even voted for debt relief for Germany post ww2.

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chris123 hove actually 06 Jul 15 1.24pm
Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 1.01pm Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 12.51pm Germany have defaulted on debt seven times in the past century. Seven. Yep. Greece even voted for debt relief for Germany post ww2. If you are talking about the London Agreement, Greece wasn't owed anything - it was virtually all owed to the US.
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chris123

hove actually 06 Jul 15 1.24pm

Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 1.01pm

Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 12.51pm

Germany have defaulted on debt seven times in the past century.

Seven.

Yep. Greece even voted for debt relief for Germany post ww2.

If you are talking about the London Agreement, Greece wasn't owed anything - it was virtually all owed to the US.

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serial thriller The Promised Land 06 Jul 15 1.38pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.25pm Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 12.22pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm [Link] Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure. I can't find the article but I read about the incompetence and wastefulness of the Athens Metro (light rail system). Overpaying cleaners and ticket inspectors who don't even turn up for work and people not paying to use the system, so it runs at a huge loss. Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks. The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out. [Link] Thanks Chris.... What a joke....... defend that left thinking people! Of the money the Troika has lent Greece, only 10% of it has actually gone to the public sector and the government. 90% of it has gone to private banks, so the idea that this has been caused by public sector malpractice is a total myth. As an example, the cost of the 2004 Olympics to the Greek state was around 9 billion euros: Greece's debt is nearing 400 billion, so blaming the cost of the Olympics is ludicrous. Obviously such debt accumulation could only be tolerated by a corrupt, dynastic government, and certainly that was the case with Pasok and New Democracy. But the real causes of Greek debt levels come from the 2007 crisis, and the idiocy of the EU and private banks in supporting a nation embroiled in a suffocating singular currency with loans they were never going to be able to pay back. For them to now come back demanding repayment is not only undemocratic (as the result yesterday showed), it's a bit like feeding your kid KFC every meal of their life and then complaining that they're overweight. The problem you have, Hoof, is you seem so blinded by your hatred for 'the left' that you are willing to defend some of the most shady, disreputable organisations in the world based on very little evidence, just to have a pop at people like myself. But look over this thread: even people like Stirling and WAGU, staunch adherents to right wing politics normally, can see how f***ed over the people of Greece have been here. It isn't a case of right vs left, it's people vs corporations. If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 06 Jul 15 1.38pm

Send a Private Message to serial thriller

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.25pm

Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 12.22pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm

[Link]

Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure.

Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks.

The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out.

[Link]

Thanks Chris....

What a joke....... defend that left thinking people!

Of the money the Troika has lent Greece, only 10% of it has actually gone to the public sector and the government. 90% of it has gone to private banks, so the idea that this has been caused by public sector malpractice is a total myth. As an example, the cost of the 2004 Olympics to the Greek state was around 9 billion euros: Greece's debt is nearing 400 billion, so blaming the cost of the Olympics is ludicrous.

Obviously such debt accumulation could only be tolerated by a corrupt, dynastic government, and certainly that was the case with Pasok and New Democracy. But the real causes of Greek debt levels come from the 2007 crisis, and the idiocy of the EU and private banks in supporting a nation embroiled in a suffocating singular currency with loans they were never going to be able to pay back. For them to now come back demanding repayment is not only undemocratic (as the result yesterday showed), it's a bit like feeding your kid KFC every meal of their life and then complaining that they're overweight.

The problem you have, Hoof, is you seem so blinded by your hatred for 'the left' that you are willing to defend some of the most shady, disreputable organisations in the world based on very little evidence, just to have a pop at people like myself. But look over this thread: even people like Stirling and WAGU, staunch adherents to right wing politics normally, can see how f***ed over the people of Greece have been here. It isn't a case of right vs left, it's people vs corporations.

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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johnfirewall 06 Jul 15 1.39pm
Just read a terrible article on some ridiculous lefty propaganda site again absolving Greeks of any blame. Instead blaming any investment bank they know the name of. At end of the day if the underlying asset is a crumbling ruin, how it's being held up is more relevent that who owns it. It's just an amplified example of a benefits scounger being blameless as long there's larger scale tax avoidance except ironically Greek companies are the tax dodgers, but of course whoever has more money is responsible. It is appalling to see assets belonging to the likes of Abramovic being covered by the bailouts of the Irish banks for example but who do we think owns everything? Not the people. Now the Greeks have democractially shot themselves in the foot to maintain their fictional socialism. Edited by johnfirewall (06 Jul 2015 1.48pm)
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johnfirewall

06 Jul 15 1.39pm

Just read a terrible article on some ridiculous lefty propaganda site again absolving Greeks of any blame. Instead blaming any investment bank they know the name of.

At end of the day if the underlying asset is a crumbling ruin, how it's being held up is more relevent that who owns it.

It's just an amplified example of a benefits scounger being blameless as long there's larger scale tax avoidance except ironically Greek companies are the tax dodgers, but of course whoever has more money is responsible.

It is appalling to see assets belonging to the likes of Abramovic being covered by the bailouts of the Irish banks for example but who do we think owns everything? Not the people. Now the Greeks have democractially shot themselves in the foot to maintain their fictional socialism.

Edited by johnfirewall (06 Jul 2015 1.48pm)

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chris123 hove actually 06 Jul 15 1.57pm
Quote serial thriller at 06 Jul 2015 1.38pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.25pm Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 12.22pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm [Link] Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure. I can't find the article but I read about the incompetence and wastefulness of the Athens Metro (light rail system). Overpaying cleaners and ticket inspectors who don't even turn up for work and people not paying to use the system, so it runs at a huge loss. Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks. The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out. [Link] Thanks Chris.... What a joke....... defend that left thinking people! Of the money the Troika has lent Greece, only 10% of it has actually gone to the public sector and the government. 90% of it has gone to private banks, so the idea that this has been caused by public sector malpractice is a total myth. As an example, the cost of the 2004 Olympics to the Greek state was around 9 billion euros: Greece's debt is nearing 400 billion, so blaming the cost of the Olympics is ludicrous. Obviously such debt accumulation could only be tolerated by a corrupt, dynastic government, and certainly that was the case with Pasok and New Democracy. But the real causes of Greek debt levels come from the 2007 crisis, and the idiocy of the EU and private banks in supporting a nation embroiled in a suffocating singular currency with loans they were never going to be able to pay back. For them to now come back demanding repayment is not only undemocratic (as the result yesterday showed), it's a bit like feeding your kid KFC every meal of their life and then complaining that they're overweight. The problem you have, Hoof, is you seem so blinded by your hatred for 'the left' that you are willing to defend some of the most shady, disreputable organisations in the world based on very little evidence, just to have a pop at people like myself. But look over this thread: even people like Stirling and WAGU, staunch adherents to right wing politics normally, can see how f***ed over the people of Greece have been here. It isn't a case of right vs left, it's people vs corporations. You're blinded - the banks that were bailed out were Greek banks. Our banks all took a huge haircut.
Alert a moderator to this post

chris123

hove actually 06 Jul 15 1.57pm

Quote serial thriller at 06 Jul 2015 1.38pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.25pm

Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 12.22pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm

[Link]

Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure.

Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks.

The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out.

[Link]

Thanks Chris....

What a joke....... defend that left thinking people!

You're blinded - the banks that were bailed out were Greek banks. Our banks all took a huge haircut.

Alert a moderator to this post

serial thriller The Promised Land 06 Jul 15 2.08pm
Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 1.57pm Quote serial thriller at 06 Jul 2015 1.38pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.25pm Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 12.22pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm [Link] Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure. I can't find the article but I read about the incompetence and wastefulness of the Athens Metro (light rail system). Overpaying cleaners and ticket inspectors who don't even turn up for work and people not paying to use the system, so it runs at a huge loss. Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks. The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out. [Link] Thanks Chris.... What a joke....... defend that left thinking people! Of the money the Troika has lent Greece, only 10% of it has actually gone to the public sector and the government. 90% of it has gone to private banks, so the idea that this has been caused by public sector malpractice is a total myth. As an example, the cost of the 2004 Olympics to the Greek state was around 9 billion euros: Greece's debt is nearing 400 billion, so blaming the cost of the Olympics is ludicrous. Obviously such debt accumulation could only be tolerated by a corrupt, dynastic government, and certainly that was the case with Pasok and New Democracy. But the real causes of Greek debt levels come from the 2007 crisis, and the idiocy of the EU and private banks in supporting a nation embroiled in a suffocating singular currency with loans they were never going to be able to pay back. For them to now come back demanding repayment is not only undemocratic (as the result yesterday showed), it's a bit like feeding your kid KFC every meal of their life and then complaining that they're overweight. The problem you have, Hoof, is you seem so blinded by your hatred for 'the left' that you are willing to defend some of the most shady, disreputable organisations in the world based on very little evidence, just to have a pop at people like myself. But look over this thread: even people like Stirling and WAGU, staunch adherents to right wing politics normally, can see how f***ed over the people of Greece have been here. It isn't a case of right vs left, it's people vs corporations. You're blinded - the banks that were bailed out were Greek banks. Our banks all took a huge haircut. Greek private banks. What happened is the same thing on a bigger scale as what happened across Europe after 2007: profit was privatised, while risk was nationalised. The Greek banks which accepted loans from German and French private banks were allowed to continue running on Troika handouts, while the money lost was recouped through public sector cuts, leading to high unemployment, a wage contraction of 25% and massive cuts to pensions etc. All of a sudden those same people vote in a government who promises to act in their interests and the EU, lead by Germany, kick up a massive fuss. Suddenly you see people like the German finance minister saying he can't work with a democratically elected minister in Tsipras, while Varoufakis is seemingly forced out. It's an insult to democracy and shows out austerity as a total scam. So please tell me, how exactly am I blinded? If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 06 Jul 15 2.08pm

Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 1.57pm

Quote serial thriller at 06 Jul 2015 1.38pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.25pm

Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 12.22pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 12.19pm

[Link]

Greece wasted most of their money... the above article shows the utter waste of Billions invested in Olympic stadia and infrastructure.

Stop making excuses for these people and stop blaming the banks.

The Greeks have created their own financial sh1tstorm, now they must ride it out.

[Link]

Thanks Chris....

What a joke....... defend that left thinking people!

You're blinded - the banks that were bailed out were Greek banks. Our banks all took a huge haircut.

Greek private banks. What happened is the same thing on a bigger scale as what happened across Europe after 2007: profit was privatised, while risk was nationalised. The Greek banks which accepted loans from German and French private banks were allowed to continue running on Troika handouts, while the money lost was recouped through public sector cuts, leading to high unemployment, a wage contraction of 25% and massive cuts to pensions etc.

All of a sudden those same people vote in a government who promises to act in their interests and the EU, lead by Germany, kick up a massive fuss. Suddenly you see people like the German finance minister saying he can't work with a democratically elected minister in Tsipras, while Varoufakis is seemingly forced out. It's an insult to democracy and shows out austerity as a total scam.

So please tell me, how exactly am I blinded?

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

Alert a moderator to this post

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