Greece on the Edge

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johnfirewall 07 Jul 15 1.06pm
Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 12.43pm Why are the Greek people paying for a mess concocted by greedy Germans, idiotic banks and a corrupt dynastic government? They have democratically voted in a government which has a mandate to increase tax regulation and create jobs in order to improve an economy which has contracted by a third since 2007. Now they've democratically voted not to re-pay. Churchill summed it up.
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johnfirewall

07 Jul 15 1.06pm

Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 12.43pm

Now they've democratically voted not to re-pay. Churchill summed it up.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jul 15 1.12pm
Quote johnfirewall at 07 Jul 2015 12.49pm I don't think anyone's blaming the people. It sounds like they're doing all they can to earn money. I've heard of restaurants opening all day and night etc. But unfortunately cash under the matress doesn't pay back the national debt. Say what you like about corporate tax avoidance in the UK, but HMRC are positively oppressive when it comes to everyone else, while Greece have certain completely exempt industries. Then there's undoubtably going to be a lot of avoidance e.g. loopholes. It seems only recently that they're cracking down on the full-on evasion. Again, if you take the citizens out of the equation which is only fair from any politcal viewpoint, how can it be capitalism and not Greece as a country at fault for borrowing without earning? Its a system of capital that has failed to maintain stability, and ultimately abuse of which resulted in systemic failure of the country to be able to function economically. Its ok, because its also a failed fascist , imperial, tyranny, dictatorship, monarchy and communist state, which should tell us something about Greece economically (all in the course of the 20th century, sometimes more than once). Even at the height of the Classical city states, the Greeks were capable of ending up in debt to slaves, and suffered from periodic recession and poor economic strength. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 07 Jul 15 1.12pm

Quote johnfirewall at 07 Jul 2015 12.49pm

I don't think anyone's blaming the people. It sounds like they're doing all they can to earn money. I've heard of restaurants opening all day and night etc. But unfortunately cash under the matress doesn't pay back the national debt.

Say what you like about corporate tax avoidance in the UK, but HMRC are positively oppressive when it comes to everyone else, while Greece have certain completely exempt industries. Then there's undoubtably going to be a lot of avoidance e.g. loopholes. It seems only recently that they're cracking down on the full-on evasion.

Again, if you take the citizens out of the equation which is only fair from any politcal viewpoint, how can it be capitalism and not Greece as a country at fault for borrowing without earning?

Its a system of capital that has failed to maintain stability, and ultimately abuse of which resulted in systemic failure of the country to be able to function economically. Its ok, because its also a failed fascist , imperial, tyranny, dictatorship, monarchy and communist state, which should tell us something about Greece economically (all in the course of the 20th century, sometimes more than once).

Even at the height of the Classical city states, the Greeks were capable of ending up in debt to slaves, and suffered from periodic recession and poor economic strength.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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serial thriller The Promised Land 07 Jul 15 1.52pm
Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 12.57pm They entered into a derivative with Goldman Sachs to keep currency positions off the books - nothing to do with Germany. I said Greece self inflicted, because their elected governments since the war have been unable to generate any surplus - not one. Global pressures apply to all economies - Greece no more or less than other countries in their peer group. To be fair the US have only had 5 budget surpluses since 1960 and they're not being forced in to mass reform. It is still no excuse for the kind of social ills being forced on the Greek people currently. If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 07 Jul 15 1.52pm

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Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 12.57pm

They entered into a derivative with Goldman Sachs to keep currency positions off the books - nothing to do with Germany. I said Greece self inflicted, because their elected governments since the war have been unable to generate any surplus - not one.

Global pressures apply to all economies - Greece no more or less than other countries in their peer group.

To be fair the US have only had 5 budget surpluses since 1960 and they're not being forced in to mass reform. It is still no excuse for the kind of social ills being forced on the Greek people currently.

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 07 Jul 15 1.54pm
Quote johnfirewall at 07 Jul 2015 1.06pm Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 12.43pm Why are the Greek people paying for a mess concocted by greedy Germans, idiotic banks and a corrupt dynastic government? They have democratically voted in a government which has a mandate to increase tax regulation and create jobs in order to improve an economy which has contracted by a third since 2007. Now they've democratically voted not to re-pay. Churchill summed it up. He nodded his head sagely, muttering 'oh yuss'. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 07 Jul 15 1.54pm

Quote johnfirewall at 07 Jul 2015 1.06pm

Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 12.43pm

Now they've democratically voted not to re-pay. Churchill summed it up.

He nodded his head sagely, muttering 'oh yuss'.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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serial thriller The Promised Land 07 Jul 15 2.00pm
Quote Cucking Funt at 07 Jul 2015 12.52pm Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 12.43pm Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 11.53am Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 11.33am Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 5.09pm Behave yourself. I gave the examples of the Olympics and the Metro system as examples of Greek corruption and incompetence....are you suggesting they didn't have an effect? Have you been to Greece and witnessed the pace of life there? They need a collective rocket up their arses to become competitive and profitable instead of granting ridiculously early retirement ages with outrageously generous benefit levels. I couldn't care less about Stirling's views and WAGU (whoever she is?). I look at situations and make my own mind up and quite obviously Greece have fcuked up bigtime here. Luckily for us, there are enough sane credible people to keep out people like you, Miliband and Balls from creating the same sh1t here. You are so out of touch you believe that Corbyn will be a good leader for Labour and therefore a prospective Prime Minister.... get a grip man. Firstly - and this is the biggest point I want to make here Hoof - you can attack me for being left wing. You can attack me for being a socially liberal, PC-brigade Marxist. But don't ever, ever, put me in the same category as Milliband and Balls again. They are almost as far gone from my political ideology as you are Hoof, and I hold them in total contempt. Anyhow. On your first point, I'm going to have to tell you some facts, and I know you won't like them, but you have to deal with them because they're true. The Olympics cost Greece 9 billion euros. Their rail project cost around 1.5 billion, but let's be generous and factor in maintenance and ticket receipt losses, and say it's cost them about 5 billion. That still accounts for about 4% of Greek debt, which has nearly doubled as a percentage of GDP since 2007. It would be better to look at the excessive military spending Greece took part in before 2007 for an example of public debt accumulation, but most of that came from a corrupted government, and pressure from European nations like Germany and the UK who forced Greece in to buying frivolous submarines, arms etc. After the financial crash, European banks lent Greece money so its own banks could continue to operate, but with very high interest rates. To repay these loans, Greece borrowed short term loans from the Troika, and saw one of the biggest economic depressions ever experienced by a developed nation with massive cuts to pensions, public infrastructure, as well as record high unemployment levels. Thus, while of course public overspending played a role in Greek debt, for you to focus on that instead of, say, the monetary union, or the debt pressure placed on the banks, or the bankers themselves, is not only to miss the elephant in the room, it's to be unaware of a herd of elephants in a room painted in sparkly colours farting directly in your face. I have been to Greece, but unlike you I sadly wasn't able to gauge the productivity of the whole nation. However, an OECD report claims Greeks are some of the most hard working people in the world, working around 2000 hours a year, 700 more than the average German, and about 300 more than the average Brit. Not only does this dispell the myth that they're all lazy and feckless, it also suggests that maybe they actually earn that early retirement in many cases. As for your last point, what exactly has that got to do with anything? Oh yeah, you're copying the tricks of the trade from your mentor Paul Dacre and his Nazi-supporting rag, going for tenuous personal slander rather than genuine intellectual debate. And you're telling me to behave. Why would anyone - banks included - borrow at rates higher than commercially available elsewhere - you'd be mad. So let's be clear - commercial lending to Greek banks is always going to be on the high side because of the inherent credit risk. Since the bailout by the Commission, the European Bank and the IMF - Greece has borrowed at very low rates - the IMF is about 1% plus penalties for not meeting the payment schedule. Greece has accumulated debt over the 60 years, is unable to generate any kind of surplus and doesn't have the basic structures to allow it collect taxes that are due. This is entirely self inflicted, and that is why there is no cash in the atms - and that's how things will remain until they stop blaming everyone else and start taking resposibility for themselves. 'Entirely self-inflicted' suggests that banks hold no responsibility to whom they lend to. As I said to danny earlier, if I went to a bank asking for a billion pound loan to pay for drugs and hookers, I would rightly be thrown out of the bank. Greece has been borrowing money to repay outstanding debts with very high interest rates, as well as to invest in German submarines and American weapons, among other things. Why were Greece entered in to a currency union when their debt to GDP was so high in contrast to, say, Germany? I think it's becoming evident now that it was a convenience for German trade, which could thus flow more freely in to Greece, while also improving the competitiveness of the German market on the world stage. Germany sold nearly 2 billion euros worth of subs to Greece while the Greek government were implementing terrifying austerity, and they didn't even work! Sure, you can blame the corrupt government, but at some point you have to acknowledge the wanton negligence of the Germans and the EU for allowing Greece in to this position. Why are the Greek people paying for a mess concocted by greedy Germans, idiotic banks and a corrupt dynastic government? They have democratically voted in a government which has a mandate to increase tax regulation and create jobs in order to improve an economy which has contracted by a third since 2007. If the Troika and Germany get their way and implement further public spending cuts, not only will Greece return to third world status, but they will be doing so with no democratic mandate and only exacerbating a problem which they were willing to help create when it was financially viable for them. For you to claim this is a problem purely of Greece's own making is to totally ignore how global commerce works, the philosophy behind the European project, and even how financial lending works. Banks have to take responsibility, but as ever they aren't, because they are moronic greedy cowards. Seldom are you and I ideological bedfellows but that is a truly exceptional post. It sums it up perfectly. I salute you, ST. Good to see you back, and don't worry, we're due a Thatcher thread soon enough and normal service will resume If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 07 Jul 15 2.00pm

Quote Cucking Funt at 07 Jul 2015 12.52pm

Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 12.43pm

Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 11.53am

Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 11.33am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 5.09pm

Behave yourself.

I gave the examples of the Olympics and the Metro system as examples of Greek corruption and incompetence....are you suggesting they didn't have an effect? Have you been to Greece and witnessed the pace of life there? They need a collective rocket up their arses to become competitive and profitable instead of granting ridiculously early retirement ages with outrageously generous benefit levels.

I couldn't care less about Stirling's views and WAGU (whoever she is?).

I look at situations and make my own mind up and quite obviously Greece have fcuked up bigtime here.

Luckily for us, there are enough sane credible people to keep out people like you, Miliband and Balls from creating the same sh1t here.

You are so out of touch you believe that Corbyn will be a good leader for Labour and therefore a prospective Prime Minister.... get a grip man.

Firstly - and this is the biggest point I want to make here Hoof - you can attack me for being left wing. You can attack me for being a socially liberal, PC-brigade Marxist. But don't ever, ever, put me in the same category as Milliband and Balls again. They are almost as far gone from my political ideology as you are Hoof, and I hold them in total contempt.

Anyhow. On your first point, I'm going to have to tell you some facts, and I know you won't like them, but you have to deal with them because they're true. The Olympics cost Greece 9 billion euros. Their rail project cost around 1.5 billion, but let's be generous and factor in maintenance and ticket receipt losses, and say it's cost them about 5 billion. That still accounts for about 4% of Greek debt, which has nearly doubled as a percentage of GDP since 2007. It would be better to look at the excessive military spending Greece took part in before 2007 for an example of public debt accumulation, but most of that came from a corrupted government, and pressure from European nations like Germany and the UK who forced Greece in to buying frivolous submarines, arms etc.

After the financial crash, European banks lent Greece money so its own banks could continue to operate, but with very high interest rates. To repay these loans, Greece borrowed short term loans from the Troika, and saw one of the biggest economic depressions ever experienced by a developed nation with massive cuts to pensions, public infrastructure, as well as record high unemployment levels. Thus, while of course public overspending played a role in Greek debt, for you to focus on that instead of, say, the monetary union, or the debt pressure placed on the banks, or the bankers themselves, is not only to miss the elephant in the room, it's to be unaware of a herd of elephants in a room painted in sparkly colours farting directly in your face.

I have been to Greece, but unlike you I sadly wasn't able to gauge the productivity of the whole nation. However, an OECD report claims Greeks are some of the most hard working people in the world, working around 2000 hours a year, 700 more than the average German, and about 300 more than the average Brit. Not only does this dispell the myth that they're all lazy and feckless, it also suggests that maybe they actually earn that early retirement in many cases.

As for your last point, what exactly has that got to do with anything? Oh yeah, you're copying the tricks of the trade from your mentor Paul Dacre and his Nazi-supporting rag, going for tenuous personal slander rather than genuine intellectual debate. And you're telling me to behave.

Why would anyone - banks included - borrow at rates higher than commercially available elsewhere - you'd be mad.

So let's be clear - commercial lending to Greek banks is always going to be on the high side because of the inherent credit risk. Since the bailout by the Commission, the European Bank and the IMF - Greece has borrowed at very low rates - the IMF is about 1% plus penalties for not meeting the payment schedule.

Greece has accumulated debt over the 60 years, is unable to generate any kind of surplus and doesn't have the basic structures to allow it collect taxes that are due. This is entirely self inflicted, and that is why there is no cash in the atms - and that's how things will remain until they stop blaming everyone else and start taking resposibility for themselves.

'Entirely self-inflicted' suggests that banks hold no responsibility to whom they lend to. As I said to danny earlier, if I went to a bank asking for a billion pound loan to pay for drugs and hookers, I would rightly be thrown out of the bank. Greece has been borrowing money to repay outstanding debts with very high interest rates, as well as to invest in German submarines and American weapons, among other things.

Why were Greece entered in to a currency union when their debt to GDP was so high in contrast to, say, Germany? I think it's becoming evident now that it was a convenience for German trade, which could thus flow more freely in to Greece, while also improving the competitiveness of the German market on the world stage. Germany sold nearly 2 billion euros worth of subs to Greece while the Greek government were implementing terrifying austerity, and they didn't even work! Sure, you can blame the corrupt government, but at some point you have to acknowledge the wanton negligence of the Germans and the EU for allowing Greece in to this position.

Why are the Greek people paying for a mess concocted by greedy Germans, idiotic banks and a corrupt dynastic government? They have democratically voted in a government which has a mandate to increase tax regulation and create jobs in order to improve an economy which has contracted by a third since 2007. If the Troika and Germany get their way and implement further public spending cuts, not only will Greece return to third world status, but they will be doing so with no democratic mandate and only exacerbating a problem which they were willing to help create when it was financially viable for them.

For you to claim this is a problem purely of Greece's own making is to totally ignore how global commerce works, the philosophy behind the European project, and even how financial lending works. Banks have to take responsibility, but as ever they aren't, because they are moronic greedy cowards.

Seldom are you and I ideological bedfellows but that is a truly exceptional post. It sums it up perfectly. I salute you, ST.

Good to see you back, and don't worry, we're due a Thatcher thread soon enough and normal service will resume

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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chris123 hove actually 07 Jul 15 2.11pm
Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 1.52pm Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 12.57pm They entered into a derivative with Goldman Sachs to keep currency positions off the books - nothing to do with Germany. I said Greece self inflicted, because their elected governments since the war have been unable to generate any surplus - not one. Global pressures apply to all economies - Greece no more or less than other countries in their peer group. To be fair the US have only had 5 budget surpluses since 1960 and they're not being forced in to mass reform. It is still no excuse for the kind of social ills being forced on the Greek people currently. Well I wouldn't place the US in Greece's peer group, but the US is getting better at collecting tax - FATCA being the latest legislation aimed at ensuring that every $ of tax due is collected - this one is aimed at US citizens living overseas. Someone up thread said how hard working Greeks were - well they not generate much income tax on those efforts.
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chris123

hove actually 07 Jul 15 2.11pm

Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 1.52pm

Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 12.57pm

Global pressures apply to all economies - Greece no more or less than other countries in their peer group.

Well I wouldn't place the US in Greece's peer group, but the US is getting better at collecting tax - FATCA being the latest legislation aimed at ensuring that every $ of tax due is collected - this one is aimed at US citizens living overseas. Someone up thread said how hard working Greeks were - well they not generate much income tax on those efforts.

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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 07 Jul 15 2.21pm
Quote johnfirewall at 07 Jul 2015 12.49pm I don't think anyone's blaming the people. It sounds like they're doing all they can to earn money. I've heard of restaurants opening all day and night etc. But unfortunately cash under the matress doesn't pay back the national debt. Say what you like about corporate tax avoidance in the UK, but HMRC are positively oppressive when it comes to everyone else, while Greece have certain completely exempt industries. Then there's undoubtably going to be a lot of avoidance e.g. loopholes. It seems only recently that they're cracking down on the full-on evasion. Again, if you take the citizens out of the equation which is only fair from any politcal viewpoint, how can it be capitalism and not Greece as a country at fault for borrowing without earning? Not when dealing with the likes of Vodaphone and Goldman Sachs they aren't. The problems of Greece lie in Greece. They hoovered up huge amounts of cash borrowed huge amounts of money at unrealistically low interest rates because they got into the Euro by using Goldman Sachs to take the national debt off balance sheet - in effect by deception. Still it is the their responsibility to pay the money back. For decades huge numbers of people - those not on the equivalent of PAYE - simply didn't pay tax. I can recall the BBC reporting years ago that on the Greek equivalent of Harley Street there was only one doctor claiming to earn enough to pay tax. This was a crisis waiting to happen and now it has. However please bare in mind that the people who are bearing the most pain have not benefited from the previous regime. How do you expect people with nothing - literally nothing in some cases to contribute more. Greece cant pay the whole debt. It needs to be reduced and people need to be given hope. It is also absurd to argue that in some way you can cut your way to prosperity. How can they pay loans if the actions of the troika are to make the economy still smaller. it is absurd. Sadly Germany seems determined to exact punishment for Varafoukis' stupid and insulting comments about war reparations. They also seem hell bent on inflicting regime change. Syriza - a party I have no great support for ideologically are actually the first Greek government to get to grips with the country's problems and should be given a little more time and space to push that forward.
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Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 07 Jul 15 2.21pm

Quote johnfirewall at 07 Jul 2015 12.49pm

Say what you like about corporate tax avoidance in the UK, but HMRC are positively oppressive when it comes to everyone else, while Greece have certain completely exempt industries. Then there's undoubtably going to be a lot of avoidance e.g. loopholes. It seems only recently that they're cracking down on the full-on evasion.

Again, if you take the citizens out of the equation which is only fair from any politcal viewpoint, how can it be capitalism and not Greece as a country at fault for borrowing without earning?

Not when dealing with the likes of Vodaphone and Goldman Sachs they aren't.

The problems of Greece lie in Greece. They hoovered up huge amounts of cash borrowed huge amounts of money at unrealistically low interest rates because they got into the Euro by using Goldman Sachs to take the national debt off balance sheet - in effect by deception. Still it is the their responsibility to pay the money back.

For decades huge numbers of people - those not on the equivalent of PAYE - simply didn't pay tax. I can recall the BBC reporting years ago that on the Greek equivalent of Harley Street there was only one doctor claiming to earn enough to pay tax. This was a crisis waiting to happen and now it has.

However please bare in mind that the people who are bearing the most pain have not benefited from the previous regime. How do you expect people with nothing - literally nothing in some cases to contribute more.

Greece cant pay the whole debt. It needs to be reduced and people need to be given hope. It is also absurd to argue that in some way you can cut your way to prosperity. How can they pay loans if the actions of the troika are to make the economy still smaller. it is absurd.

Sadly Germany seems determined to exact punishment for Varafoukis' stupid and insulting comments about war reparations. They also seem hell bent on inflicting regime change. Syriza - a party I have no great support for ideologically are actually the first Greek government to get to grips with the country's problems and should be given a little more time and space to push that forward.

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We are goin up! Coulsdon 07 Jul 15 2.44pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 07 Jul 2015 10.45am Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 6.16pm WAGU is me Made the username when I was 14 and stuck with it. Live and learn. Sorry Hoof, I agree with you on the last two paragraphs (would laugh for weeks if they put Corbyn in) but you're pretty wrong on Greece, you're just ignoring fact. You simply cannot compare Greece to the UK (as, to be fair, Conservative HQ have done to great effect) because they're completely different nations in different situations. Greece are in a monetary union, and stuck in it. The causes of this are basically down to corruption of the political elite AND the German banks. Now, the political elite gained a lot monetarily from these shady lending deals, and so did the German banks of course. These politicians built up a system (through dodgy backhanders) whereby they stayed in power if the rich weren't forced to pay their taxes. The political elite have since lost all their power to the only party challenging them. Syriza have at promised to fight corruption and high level tax evasion by the very rich. Since you think corruption and poor tax collection is the root cause of Greece's problems, wouldn't you say that this is a good thing? I fail to see what else the Greek government can do, they have exhausted all their other choices. I repeat, they've slashed wages by 40%. Forty! They've slashed pensions by 50%. Imagine if your pension was cut in half! Unemployment is 25%, youth unemployment 50% and all the talented youths are leaving for sunnier climbs elsewhere. A brain drain. This is not any old recession in Greece, this is a great depression. And what you and others propose is that Greece should somehow punish its poor and working class even further? Is that really wise? I'm all for fiscal responsibility, I'm a Conservative, but one should also be compassionate and make sure that everyone pays their fair share. The democratically elected Greek government has been given no support from their creditors to actually fight these problems. Why is it that Germany flat out refuses to restructure any debt? It couldn't be that it would be too politically dangerous at home, could it? Or that their banks would revolt? They're not exactly whiter than white! You seem to support the right like you would a football team. It simply shouldn't be like that. Practical solutions to problems is what is needed. Sorry... thought WAGU sounded a bit like Colleen Rooney or Alex Curran mate.... LOL Sorry also, but I can't buy this current obsession with blaming the Bankers for all the world's problems and it p1sses me off that they are being blamed again for Greek incompetence and corruption. That is my position and I'm not likely to budge. As for my support of the right this has evolved after having a Labour voting, Daily Mirror reading father who was always spouting on and I deliberately took a career in finance and vote Tory to annoy him. But over the years I've been able to vote (43) I've discovered that the left haven't got a fcuking clue about how to run things, especially the economy, whereas the right have. I love Palace I love Tories... what's wrong with that? You didn't answer a single one of my questions that I posed so what's the point? Sounds like you're just stubborn in your beliefs despite being offered evidence to the contrary, you're like a free-market nickgusset. The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
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We are goin up!

Coulsdon 07 Jul 15 2.44pm

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Quote Hoof Hearted at 07 Jul 2015 10.45am

Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 6.16pm

WAGU is me Made the username when I was 14 and stuck with it. Live and learn.

Sorry Hoof, I agree with you on the last two paragraphs (would laugh for weeks if they put Corbyn in) but you're pretty wrong on Greece, you're just ignoring fact.

You simply cannot compare Greece to the UK (as, to be fair, Conservative HQ have done to great effect) because they're completely different nations in different situations.

Greece are in a monetary union, and stuck in it. The causes of this are basically down to corruption of the political elite AND the German banks. Now, the political elite gained a lot monetarily from these shady lending deals, and so did the German banks of course. These politicians built up a system (through dodgy backhanders) whereby they stayed in power if the rich weren't forced to pay their taxes. The political elite have since lost all their power to the only party challenging them. Syriza have at promised to fight corruption and high level tax evasion by the very rich.

Since you think corruption and poor tax collection is the root cause of Greece's problems, wouldn't you say that this is a good thing?

I fail to see what else the Greek government can do, they have exhausted all their other choices. I repeat, they've slashed wages by 40%. Forty! They've slashed pensions by 50%. Imagine if your pension was cut in half! Unemployment is 25%, youth unemployment 50% and all the talented youths are leaving for sunnier climbs elsewhere. A brain drain.

This is not any old recession in Greece, this is a great depression. And what you and others propose is that Greece should somehow punish its poor and working class even further? Is that really wise? I'm all for fiscal responsibility, I'm a Conservative, but one should also be compassionate and make sure that everyone pays their fair share.

The democratically elected Greek government has been given no support from their creditors to actually fight these problems.

Why is it that Germany flat out refuses to restructure any debt? It couldn't be that it would be too politically dangerous at home, could it? Or that their banks would revolt? They're not exactly whiter than white!

You seem to support the right like you would a football team. It simply shouldn't be like that. Practical solutions to problems is what is needed.

Sorry... thought WAGU sounded a bit like Colleen Rooney or Alex Curran mate.... LOL

Sorry also, but I can't buy this current obsession with blaming the Bankers for all the world's problems and it p1sses me off that they are being blamed again for Greek incompetence and corruption.

That is my position and I'm not likely to budge.

As for my support of the right this has evolved after having a Labour voting, Daily Mirror reading father who was always spouting on and I deliberately took a career in finance and vote Tory to annoy him. But over the years I've been able to vote (43) I've discovered that the left haven't got a fcuking clue about how to run things, especially the economy, whereas the right have. I love Palace I love Tories... what's wrong with that?

You didn't answer a single one of my questions that I posed so what's the point? Sounds like you're just stubborn in your beliefs despite being offered evidence to the contrary, you're like a free-market nickgusset.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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Ray in Houston Houston 07 Jul 15 2.47pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Jul 2015 11.58am Greece is essentially an example of a failure of capitalism, some people don't like to admit that, so they blame anything else, especially the people most affected and with the least amount of influence over the system. But ultimately capitalism as a system has failed Greece. Capitalism as a system doesn't work. Only when it's tempered with socialism - like the US did in the 1950s - does it work. The converse is also true. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 07 Jul 15 2.47pm

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Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Jul 2015 11.58am

Greece is essentially an example of a failure of capitalism, some people don't like to admit that, so they blame anything else, especially the people most affected and with the least amount of influence over the system.

But ultimately capitalism as a system has failed Greece.

Capitalism as a system doesn't work. Only when it's tempered with socialism - like the US did in the 1950s - does it work.

The converse is also true.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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Lyons550 Shirley 07 Jul 15 2.50pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Jul 2015 11.58am Greece is essentially an example of a failure of capitalism, some people don't like to admit that, so they blame anything else, especially the people most affected and with the least amount of influence over the system. But ultimately capitalism as a system has failed Greece. Is it a failure of capitalism...? Or is it simply failure to deal with corruption within the tax collection system? The latter is hardly a capitalist issue...you get corruption in communist and Marxist states as well. The real answer of course is that its PEOPLE that are the issue; which is why you'll get Communism working in some places and not in others and the same for Capitalism. Edited by Lyons550 (07 Jul 2015 2.53pm) The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World
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Lyons550

Shirley 07 Jul 15 2.50pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Jul 2015 11.58am

But ultimately capitalism as a system has failed Greece.

Is it a failure of capitalism...? Or is it simply failure to deal with corruption within the tax collection system? The latter is hardly a capitalist issue...you get corruption in communist and Marxist states as well. The real answer of course is that its PEOPLE that are the issue; which is why you'll get Communism working in some places and not in others and the same for Capitalism.

Edited by Lyons550 (07 Jul 2015 2.53pm)

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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chris123 hove actually 07 Jul 15 3.01pm
Quote We are goin up! at 07 Jul 2015 2.44pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 07 Jul 2015 10.45am Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 6.16pm WAGU is me Made the username when I was 14 and stuck with it. Live and learn. Sorry Hoof, I agree with you on the last two paragraphs (would laugh for weeks if they put Corbyn in) but you're pretty wrong on Greece, you're just ignoring fact. You simply cannot compare Greece to the UK (as, to be fair, Conservative HQ have done to great effect) because they're completely different nations in different situations. Greece are in a monetary union, and stuck in it. The causes of this are basically down to corruption of the political elite AND the German banks. Now, the political elite gained a lot monetarily from these shady lending deals, and so did the German banks of course. These politicians built up a system (through dodgy backhanders) whereby they stayed in power if the rich weren't forced to pay their taxes. The political elite have since lost all their power to the only party challenging them. Syriza have at promised to fight corruption and high level tax evasion by the very rich. Since you think corruption and poor tax collection is the root cause of Greece's problems, wouldn't you say that this is a good thing? I fail to see what else the Greek government can do, they have exhausted all their other choices. I repeat, they've slashed wages by 40%. Forty! They've slashed pensions by 50%. Imagine if your pension was cut in half! Unemployment is 25%, youth unemployment 50% and all the talented youths are leaving for sunnier climbs elsewhere. A brain drain. This is not any old recession in Greece, this is a great depression. And what you and others propose is that Greece should somehow punish its poor and working class even further? Is that really wise? I'm all for fiscal responsibility, I'm a Conservative, but one should also be compassionate and make sure that everyone pays their fair share. The democratically elected Greek government has been given no support from their creditors to actually fight these problems. Why is it that Germany flat out refuses to restructure any debt? It couldn't be that it would be too politically dangerous at home, could it? Or that their banks would revolt? They're not exactly whiter than white! You seem to support the right like you would a football team. It simply shouldn't be like that. Practical solutions to problems is what is needed. Sorry... thought WAGU sounded a bit like Colleen Rooney or Alex Curran mate.... LOL Sorry also, but I can't buy this current obsession with blaming the Bankers for all the world's problems and it p1sses me off that they are being blamed again for Greek incompetence and corruption. That is my position and I'm not likely to budge. As for my support of the right this has evolved after having a Labour voting, Daily Mirror reading father who was always spouting on and I deliberately took a career in finance and vote Tory to annoy him. But over the years I've been able to vote (43) I've discovered that the left haven't got a fcuking clue about how to run things, especially the economy, whereas the right have. I love Palace I love Tories... what's wrong with that? You didn't answer a single one of my questions that I posed so what's the point? Sounds like you're just stubborn in your beliefs despite being offered evidence to the contrary, you're like a free-market nickgusset. I'll answer a couple. The democratically elected Governments of all the counties who are owed money are just as entitled to say to the Troika - no negotiations. And it's not just Germany, it's all the Eurozone.
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chris123

hove actually 07 Jul 15 3.01pm

Quote We are goin up! at 07 Jul 2015 2.44pm