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This (Cameron protest)

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Hoof Hearted 11 Apr 16 10.41am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Bizarre to criticise those rallying, particularly when your argument is made up entirely of speculation and guesswork.

You have no idea the employment status, financial status or lifestyle of these people, so to generalise them as such because they have an opinion different to your own is very weak.

Just making a point comrade.

It's okay for Mr Megaphone to speculate about Cameron when he knows only what his imagination tells him and Socialist Worker journalists print in their lefty rag.

If my opinion is weak, then so is Mr Megaphones.

 

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 11 Apr 16 10.45am Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Tax Avoidance might be legal, there is no guarantee that many of these off shore schemes are legal, because they haven't been tested. The ISA scheme is well established as legal, because it specifically within the legal definitions.

However, when you're talking about funds transferred to a shell company, overseas, which has phony members to hide its ownership, then you're into questionable legality, especially if you didn't haven't declared it as earnings. And here in lies the important aspect, that would be potentially criminal.

And even if criminal charges aren't brought, that doesn't mean the scheme is legal either, charges only relate to the criminal offence of tax evasion. To reclaim such income as tax, doesn't require 'beyond reasonable doubt', only that its established as having been eligible for taxation payments.

Its even possible that people weren't even aware how their money was being handled - as a lot of people will have accountants and firms that 'deal with that for them' and their interest is strictly about the return (which would make proving a criminal intent difficult).

That is also known as common method of money laundering (where in you disguise income, take a small loss on it, in order to convert it back from a seeming legitimate source at a later date).

The problem many of these people may well face is that the methods used abroad would be illegal within the UK (in fact they'd be money laundering and tax evasion within the United Kingdom). HMRC would likely try to make the case that as such, because the funds were from the UK, by UK citizens, resident in the UK for more than x length of time each year, then they represent evasion rather than avoidance.

All seems a bit contrived to me.

Yes, he's very wealthy (no surprise to anyone that an Eton boy may have a bit of cash, surely).
The cash was invested in a tax efficient manner (presumably on the advice of a Financial Advisor and/or accountant).
He paid all tax due.

I once sold a house I rented out, and minimised my CGT liability by cross-claiming losses I made on a business venture. Efficient. Legal. Fine, surely?

I'm all for loopholes in tax legislation being investigated, plugged (where they are proven to be dodgy), and preferably something put in place to prevent accountants just inventing new ones, and I firmly believe we should be pumping billions into HMRC to do just that, but claiming immorality is a false argument, just as it would be to claim it's immoral to either utilise your entire ISA allowance every year, or to gift your children cash to avoid eventual inheritance tax.

All in my own opinion, of course - I'm sure others will disagree.

 

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Hoof Hearted 11 Apr 16 10.49am

Originally posted by npn

All seems a bit contrived to me.

Yes, he's very wealthy (no surprise to anyone that an Eton boy may have a bit of cash, surely).
The cash was invested in a tax efficient manner (presumably on the advice of a Financial Advisor and/or accountant).
He paid all tax due.

I once sold a house I rented out, and minimised my CGT liability by cross-claiming losses I made on a business venture. Efficient. Legal. Fine, surely?

I'm all for loopholes in tax legislation being investigated, plugged (where they are proven to be dodgy), and preferably something put in place to prevent accountants just inventing new ones, and I firmly believe we should be pumping billions into HMRC to do just that, but claiming immorality is a false argument, just as it would be to claim it's immoral to either utilise your entire ISA allowance every year, or to gift your children cash to avoid eventual inheritance tax.

All in my own opinion, of course - I'm sure others will disagree.

Well said npn.

Morality shouldn't come into it.

If Cameron, or any other MP or celebrity has invested in a totally legal tax efficient instrument that is their business and HRMC's - nobody elses.

If you don't like it, form your own political party, get elected and change the tax laws.

 

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View We are goin up!'s Profile We are goin up! Flag Coulsdon 11 Apr 16 11.08am Send a Private Message to We are goin up! Add We are goin up! as a friend

The complete tw*t in that video went on This Week (political programme that's on after Question Time) trying to convince everyone that they shouldn't vote. He was also privately educated, nice place to have socialist views from, isn't it? BBC's wet dream. Watch Andrew Neil tearing him apart here:

[Link]

When will the left learn that the more they moan, the less appealing their cause is to the average man? It's pathetic. They think because they shout the loudest that they are winning the argument, even though time and again this is proved to not be the case.

Cameron has clearly not done anything wrong, his crime is to wisely manage his personal finances. I'd be more worried if he hadn't. Having said that, he hasn't covered himself in glory in his handling of it. Calls for him to resign are ludicrous.


Edited by We are goin up! (11 Apr 2016 11.25am)

 


The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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Hoof Hearted 11 Apr 16 11.36am

Originally posted by We are goin up!

The complete tw*t in that video went on This Week (political programme that's on after Question Time) trying to convince everyone that they shouldn't vote. He was also privately educated, nice place to have socialist views from, isn't it? BBC's wet dream. Watch Andrew Neil tearing him apart here:

[Link]

When will the left learn that the more they moan, the less appealing their cause is to the average man? It's pathetic. They think because they shout the loudest that they are winning the argument, even though time and again this is proved to not be the case.

Cameron has clearly not done anything wrong, his crime is to wisely manage his personal finances. I'd be more worried if he hadn't. Having said that, he hasn't covered himself in glory in his handling of it. Calls for him to resign are ludicrous.


Edited by We are goin up! (11 Apr 2016 11.25am)


Hahaha... what a cock.

He trumpets the advantage he and his cohorts have in being able to check facts on the internet then the 'old guys' memories prove to be far superior than his instant facts by pointing out to him that Suez and Iraq were similar events whereas he thought they weren't.

Then Portillo stuffs him with his textbook definition of Austerity which confounds him completely and the guy just pulls a face when he realises that he is only just another angry 'Russell Brand' type spouting hot air/bollocks.

Edited by Hoof Hearted (11 Apr 2016 11.38am)

 

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legaleagle Flag 11 Apr 16 11.40am

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

Is Corbyn and the leader of the Green Party etc going to publish their accounts?

Is that moron with the megaphone going to come clean about how he makes his money, and what tax he pays (if any) ?

I'll bet half those people on that "rally" have avoided tax buying and selling items on EBay, overdoing duty free items on trips to France helping Asylum Seekers, getting paid in cash for casual work done... the rest will be benefit scroungers helping themselves to our hard earned tax/NI spending it on weed, cider and iPhones, then turning up at the foodbank pleading poverty.

Cameron was stupid to publish his accounts, as jealous tools like this shower think they have him on the run.

Careful Hoof,or people might attribute your ignorance about duty free within the EU to all your views..There is no duty free for trips to France...abolished in 1999!

 

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Hoof Hearted 11 Apr 16 11.53am

Originally posted by legaleagle

Careful Hoof,or people might attribute your ignorance about duty free within the EU to all your views..There is no duty free for trips to France...abolished in 1999!

[Link]

But... there are still limits as to what you can bring in to the UK from France or any other EU nation for it to be deemed "personal use".

Pulling me up on the term "duty free" doesn't change the sentiment (and I noticed your usual attempts to discredit my posts with reference to general ignorance, even though you did it in a light hearted fashion.... if you think I'm generally an ignorant person at least have the cojones to say it openly )

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 11 Apr 16 12.05pm

Originally posted by npn

All seems a bit contrived to me.

Yes, he's very wealthy (no surprise to anyone that an Eton boy may have a bit of cash, surely).
The cash was invested in a tax efficient manner (presumably on the advice of a Financial Advisor and/or accountant).
He paid all tax due.

The key is untested schemes, which rely on obfuscation rather than necessarily fitting into the law or spirit of the law. The advice of a Financial Advisor or Accountant doesn't mean a scheme is necessarily legal. For example, an ISA is legal, as are cash gifts if you don't die within 7 years, because they're established in UK law.

A lot of tax avoidance schemes are in a grey area that they have not been tested in law, and with these offshores they also rely on obfuscation using laws in those countries that are different to the UKs. For example, a lot of these Panama exposed schemes seem to rely on fraudulent practices that would be against the law in the UK (such as fake employees and shareholders) or withholding the names of directors of a company (or using the name of someone who isn't a director to acts as the director and paying them to do so).

Originally posted by npn

I once sold a house I rented out, and minimised my CGT liability by cross-claiming losses I made on a business venture. Efficient. Legal. Fine, surely?

Yes, definitely legal, provided those cross claimed losses were on a legitimate venture. Now if that venture was specifically set up to make a loss, in order to minimalise capital gain taxes (ie the loss of the venture was lower than the savings on CGT, then it could very well be illegal, as it falls into areas of fraud).

Originally posted by npn

I'm all for loopholes in tax legislation being investigated, plugged (where they are proven to be dodgy), and preferably something put in place to prevent accountants just inventing new ones, and I firmly believe we should be pumping billions into HMRC to do just that, but claiming immorality is a false argument, just as it would be to claim it's immoral to either utilise your entire ISA allowance every year, or to gift your children cash to avoid eventual inheritance tax.

I'm not even that draconian, I don't really have a problem where people are say adopting a scheme in the UK that reduces their tax earnings a bit, provided they're not taking the p*ss. Kind of like if someone on benefits, earns a few quid doing labour on the side, or someone occasionally does some private work to make ends meet.

I think inevitably everyone will game the system to an extent, same as when people throw a sickie for a day off, or pay someone cash for a discount.

But this isn't to make ends meet, top up or save a bit here and there, its enormous and many of them would be illegal where they conducted in the UK, where these people are resident and earning the money from. It seems a lot of them aren't about 'saving a bit' but as much as is humanly possible - and hiding it entirely.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 11 Apr 16 12.12pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

[Link]

But... there are still limits as to what you can bring in to the UK from France or any other EU nation for it to be deemed "personal use".

Pulling me up on the term "duty free" doesn't change the sentiment (and I noticed your usual attempts to discredit my posts with reference to general ignorance, even though you did it in a light hearted fashion.... if you think I'm generally an ignorant person at least have the cojones to say it openly )

To use the duty free analogy.

I think its ok, when people maybe chance it, and bring back a bit over them limits, and go through the nothing to declare and don't get caught (or bringing in 200 ciggie for a friend etc).

I think its very different when people smuggle alcohol and tobacco into the UK and sell it on. This is where these schemes come in, its like parking a van in dover, going over on foot, loading up in France, coming back, putting it in the van, and then going straight back. All day long - and then selling it at a discounted price.

But in this analogy, some of these people are effectively running an off licence in the UK, selling illegally imported booze and tobacco, and selling it at full bonded prices.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 11 Apr 16 12.27pm

Originally posted by phil19750

He sold his interest before he became Prime Minister.

There can't be one rule for one and one rule for others.

The "tax avoidance" is legal and no different than investing in an ISA.

Edited by phil19750 (11 Apr 2016 9.57am)

He sold the shares in January 2010, His Father died in the September . Did Dave get his inheritance early? If not surely Dave isn't telling us everyything.

Edited by nickgusset (11 Apr 2016 12.27pm)

 

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View We are goin up!'s Profile We are goin up! Flag Coulsdon 11 Apr 16 12.37pm Send a Private Message to We are goin up! Add We are goin up! as a friend

Why on earth are MPs declaring their tax returns? It's absolutely ludicrous, it's their personal finances. Clue is in the word, PERSONAL. Surely we shouldn't be making the idea of being an MP even more undesirable, we want to attract the best people to run the country, this is not the way to do it!

 


The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 11 Apr 16 12.39pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by legaleagle

Careful Hoof,or people might attribute your ignorance about duty free within the EU to all your views..There is no duty free for trips to France...abolished in 1999!

You like bandying around the word ignorance don't you.

You must be one of these types with delusions of superiority.

Nothing like a bit of name calling and swerve to cloud an issue.

 

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