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Weatherspoons fined for banning p*****

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 20 May 15 2.38pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 May 2015 12.58pm

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 11.37am

They accepted the order, then turned it down later - are you saying that it would be fine if they'd rejected the order up front (which makes a mockery of the whole case, in my opinion)?

Yes, if they have a corporate policy then it should be communicated to the staff and practiced - You don't have to accept someone's custom, I suppose (although you can't refuse them on the basis of being gay) but once you have taken an order you have entered into a contract with that party.

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 11.37am

As for refusing to promote political causes, that would be fine, but you "have to be upfront" about it? Does that mean you have to list all the things you are NOT willing to put on a cake before you've been asked to do so?

I would imagine that you should communicate that policy to your staff and the people taking orders.

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 11.37am

I am totally for non-discrimitation on the grounds of pretty much anything, but I'm also totally for the rights of anyone (business or personal) to refuse to promote something they feel strongly against.

I disagree with the part in regards to a business, as a business, except maybe as applies to a sole trader, as a business is not a person, but a collection of people. Furthermore, businesses have to operate in line with commercial law and regulation.

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 11.37am
Would a vegan baker have to produce a "bring back fox hunting" cake?
As in the example above, would a muslim have to produce one with Mo on it?

Its not about an individual, this is about a company violating contract law and commercial law on the basis of the views of some of its owners.

In either case both could turn down the order but they cannot accept it, and then change their minds.

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 11.37am

In fact, forget the cakes - what about printers? Should a printer be obliged by law to print whatever they are asked? BNP leaflets, for instance?

They aren't required to, as a service they do not have to enter into a contract, but if they do accept a contract then they are bound by it.

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 11.37am
Or is it simply the fact that someone accepted the order and later cancelled it which is the problem (which, again, makes a mockery of the law if you're allowed to reject outright, just not accept and reject later).

By rejecting it later, you're breaking the contract with the ordering party, which opens you to redress. Same as any contract, once you accept it, you can't just break it without redress or recourse for the aggrieved party.

I work

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 11.37am
Shoe on the other foot: would a gay baker be obliged to make a "ban gay marriage" cake?

If they accepted the contract in the first place, then yes.

In addition to that you cannot discriminate against a client based on race, gender, sexual orientation or religion (ie you have to find another reason to turn down their business).


To reiterate, as I understand it they didn't discriminate because they were gay, they simply objected to the wording.

I'm sure they would have objected if a straight person had ordered a cake with the same wording which by definition means they haven't been discriminated againbst, surely?

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 20 May 15 3.57pm

Which wasn't the finding of the case, or the appeals, where the judges specifically stated they have violated commercial law in regards to discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, and awarded costs to the plaintiff.

I don't know the full ins and outs, of the case, but it seems that they have failed at least twice now to show their actions were reasonable, and non discriminatory.

What they might do in different hyperthetical circumstances, is irrelevant, the case in question is what counts.

They broke a contractual obligation unreasonably, and protested a false ground, on which sufficient grounds were presented for them to have violated commercial law regarding discrimination.

As the judge points out, repeatedly, their business is not a Christian business, and as such their beliefs remain irrelevant. Once they accepted payment they were contractually obligated to produce their end of the deal.

I'm sure their god will reward them in the next life for the martyrdom or whatever.

 


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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 20 May 15 4.30pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

I quite liked the comparison of asking a muslim printers, to print pictures of Mo.

 


Optimistic as ever

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derben Flag 20 May 15 5.15pm

I don't really like these big over-rich, fruity cakes anyway. I prefer smaller ones, like fairy cakes, or a nice mincepie.

Edited by derben (20 May 2015 5.34pm)

 

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 20 May 15 5.54pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 May 2015 3.57pm

Which wasn't the finding of the case, or the appeals, where the judges specifically stated they have violated commercial law in regards to discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, and awarded costs to the plaintiff.

I don't know the full ins and outs, of the case, but it seems that they have failed at least twice now to show their actions were reasonable, and non discriminatory.

What they might do in different hyperthetical circumstances, is irrelevant, the case in question is what counts.

They broke a contractual obligation unreasonably, and protested a false ground, on which sufficient grounds were presented for them to have violated commercial law regarding discrimination.

As the judge points out, repeatedly, their business is not a Christian business, and as such their beliefs remain irrelevant. Once they accepted payment they were contractually obligated to produce their end of the deal.

I'm sure their god will reward them in the next life for the martyrdom or whatever.


But the fact remains that if I (a straight bloke) had made an identical request for an identical cake, they'd have told me to get stuffed too, therefore they cannot possibly be discriminating against the plaintiff on the grounds of his sexual orientation (in fact, the guy was long gone and the owners never even saw him, when the decision was made to cancel the order).

So I agree with you - if they were being prosecuted for failing to fulfil a contract, fair play, but for discrimination on the grounds of sexuality? Do me a favour.

The law, as they say, is an ass.

 

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View eagles2011's Profile eagles2011 Flag 20 May 15 7.42pm Send a Private Message to eagles2011 Add eagles2011 as a friend

I thought this was about a pub refusing admission to a bunch of pikeys - seems to have changed to gay cakes

 

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View ilovejo's Profile ilovejo Flag Croydon 20 May 15 8.13pm Send a Private Message to ilovejo Add ilovejo as a friend

I've worked at a Gypsy wedding once (didn't know they were travellers until they turned up), absolute fcking nightmare.

It was running ok until they decided to have a fight in the middle of the dance floor... blood everywhere, and we found part of someone's ear!!!
I had to pull 2 members of staff into the kitchen area and lock the doors or god knows what would've happened if we got caught in it.

 


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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 20 May 15 8.30pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Quote ilovejo at 20 May 2015 8.13pm

I've worked at a Gypsy wedding once (didn't know they were travellers until they turned up), absolute fcking nightmare.

It was running ok until they decided to have a fight in the middle of the dance floor... blood everywhere, and we found part of someone's ear!!!
I had to pull 2 members of staff into the kitchen area and lock the doors or god knows what would've happened if we got caught in it.


Probably shouldn't confuse Gypsy and Traveller. Travellers are trained to fight from being very small, forced into hitting each other as children. They think fighting is good sport and natural.

They also think dropping potentially dangerous rubbish anywhere they feel like is absolutely fine. Can't see there is much to celebrate in a culture like that and I really don't know how they get away with as much as they do. When they turn up they are a mobile crimewave. Why on earth would anyone want them around, especially as you will get a fistful if you complain.

 

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derben Flag 20 May 15 8.49pm

Quote Mapletree at 20 May 2015 8.30pm

Quote ilovejo at 20 May 2015 8.13pm

I've worked at a Gypsy wedding once (didn't know they were travellers until they turned up), absolute fcking nightmare.

It was running ok until they decided to have a fight in the middle of the dance floor... blood everywhere, and we found part of someone's ear!!!
I had to pull 2 members of staff into the kitchen area and lock the doors or god knows what would've happened if we got caught in it.


Probably shouldn't confuse Gypsy and Traveller. Travellers are trained to fight from being very small, forced into hitting each other as children. They think fighting is good sport and natural.

They also think dropping potentially dangerous rubbish anywhere they feel like is absolutely fine. Can't see there is much to celebrate in a culture like that and I really don't know how they get away with as much as they do. When they turn up they are a mobile crimewave. Why on earth would anyone want them around, especially as you will get a fistful if you complain.

Surely we are supposed to 'celebrate' them for 'enriching' our culture with 'diversity'?

 

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Tom-the-eagle Flag Croydon 20 May 15 8.57pm

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 5.54pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 May 2015 3.57pm

Which wasn't the finding of the case, or the appeals, where the judges specifically stated they have violated commercial law in regards to discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, and awarded costs to the plaintiff.

I don't know the full ins and outs, of the case, but it seems that they have failed at least twice now to show their actions were reasonable, and non discriminatory.

What they might do in different hyperthetical circumstances, is irrelevant, the case in question is what counts.

They broke a contractual obligation unreasonably, and protested a false ground, on which sufficient grounds were presented for them to have violated commercial law regarding discrimination.

As the judge points out, repeatedly, their business is not a Christian business, and as such their beliefs remain irrelevant. Once they accepted payment they were contractually obligated to produce their end of the deal.

I'm sure their god will reward them in the next life for the martyrdom or whatever.


But the fact remains that if I (a straight bloke) had made an identical request for an identical cake, they'd have told me to get stuffed too, therefore they cannot possibly be discriminating against the plaintiff on the grounds of his sexual orientation (in fact, the guy was long gone and the owners never even saw him, when the decision was made to cancel the order).

So I agree with you - if they were being prosecuted for failing to fulfil a contract, fair play, but for discrimination on the grounds of sexuality? Do me a favour.

The law, as they say, is an ass.


Maybe that explains why he sued then..

 


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View Old Chap's Profile Old Chap Flag Orpington 21 May 15 11.10am Send a Private Message to Old Chap Add Old Chap as a friend

Quote ilovejo at 20 May 2015 8.13pm

I've worked at a Gypsy wedding once (didn't know they were travellers until they turned up), absolute fcking nightmare.

It was running ok until they decided to have a fight in the middle of the dance floor... blood everywhere, and we found part of someone's ear!!!
I had to pull 2 members of staff into the kitchen area and lock the doors or god knows what would've happened if we got caught in it.

Pub near me was a nice family run place, had a restaurant you could take your gran for a meal. Change of landlord, new one was warned not to let the pikeys in - he ignored the advice.

Loads of them started coming, but they would fight amongst themselves almost every night, place was wrecked, all the other customers went somewhere else, drug dealing going on.

Pub were told to employ security, that didn't stop them, police got fed up & opposed the licence, pub closed down

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 21 May 15 11.34am

Quote npn at 20 May 2015 5.54pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 May 2015 3.57pm

Which wasn't the finding of the case, or the appeals, where the judges specifically stated they have violated commercial law in regards to discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, and awarded costs to the plaintiff.

I don't know the full ins and outs, of the case, but it seems that they have failed at least twice now to show their actions were reasonable, and non discriminatory.

What they might do in different hyperthetical circumstances, is irrelevant, the case in question is what counts.

They broke a contractual obligation unreasonably, and protested a false ground, on which sufficient grounds were presented for them to have violated commercial law regarding discrimination.

As the judge points out, repeatedly, their business is not a Christian business, and as such their beliefs remain irrelevant. Once they accepted payment they were contractually obligated to produce their end of the deal.

I'm sure their god will reward them in the next life for the martyrdom or whatever.


But the fact remains that if I (a straight bloke) had made an identical request for an identical cake, they'd have told me to get stuffed too, therefore they cannot possibly be discriminating against the plaintiff on the grounds of his sexual orientation (in fact, the guy was long gone and the owners never even saw him, when the decision was made to cancel the order).

So I agree with you - if they were being prosecuted for failing to fulfil a contract, fair play, but for discrimination on the grounds of sexuality? Do me a favour.

The law, as they say, is an ass.

Its irrelivent, because that didn't happen, and a case is based on what happened, not what may happen in a hypothetical case. Of course it it could be shown to have occured prior to the event, then it would be fine.

It doesn't help your defence when you specifically state you don't agree with gay marriage because you're a christian, when of course any number of christians do support gay marriage (even among evangelicals and born again movements there are those that are christian and pro-gay marriage). Especially given a historical context that those same groups also opposed every step of equal rights legilsation revolving around homosexuality, but thats not accorded as evidence either.

Making such statements about a case, prior to hearings is just asking for it to be included in the plantiffs case against you.

I think, had they actually pursued a case sensibly, and controlled their own mouths in the press, they'd have avoided that aspect. Remember this is balance of evidence, not reasonable doubt (which would likely be in their favour).

So in truth, its fairly easy to make a reasonable case that 'they had an issue with the message and homosexuality' rather than just an objection to the political message.


 


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