Is Britain a racist country?
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jamiemartin721  Reading 04 Jun 15 9.45am |
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Quote TheJudge at 04 Jun 2015 9.15am
What we have is a country where a significant minority think they are in a position to cast moral judgment on behalf of others. Your Liberal/left if you like. They are more preoccupied with the plight of others,or at least like to give that impression to claim the fashionable moral high ground, than themselves and their families. People of other races and nations can look after themselves and there are laws that try to enforce fairness. I'm sure the vast majority of them don't spend their time fretting over the plight of the white man or the British. Why should they ? "Racism" is currently a vehicle by which people pursue self interest and the liberals feel superior. In terms of genuine racism and bigotry,Britain doesn't even register on the chart. Edited by TheJudge (04 Jun 2015 9.15am) Lucky the right wing haven't done that ever, such as on new age travelers, welfare recipients, the mentally ill, drug users, ravers, homosexuals, transgendered so on and so forth. The problem isn't with left or right, its with the idea of thinking in terms of Morality and the idea that your morality can be applied to other people and that will change them somehow for their 'own good'. We as a society need to stop thinking 'we are right, they are wrong' and instead use critical analysis to ascertain the impact and problems caused by an issue, rather than just the fact it annoys the people who vote for us or is a 'big media story issue'. The sad fact about the British is an increasing desire to control others morality through authority, rather than just protecting the rights and evidenced best interests of the people involved and affected (even if they don't vote for you).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jun 15 9.52am |
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Worth noting, that most of the foreign countries I've visited, its generally been an advantage being white and British, probably because you are assumed to be rich (and are by local standards) or good marriage prospects (see the first). My friends in Vietnam live like kings doing jobs that here they'd struggle to make rent. When they cross over into Cambodia they get to live like gods. A friend of mine works in South Korea, in a position well above his qualification, because having a white british guy as an executive carries prestige (he'd be paid more if he was American mind). Here, he'd be lucky to be a manager. Even the police treat them as special. Its important to remember that in a lot of foreign countries, being White and European is a massive advantage (but its generally because you're rich by comparison). That said, the same traits would get you murdered, robbed and buried somewhere discrete in certain parts of town, and certainly if you were say injured by a driver in Vietnam, there is a distinct possibility that they'd kill you, and take the jail time over the risk of having to pay you damages. Edited by jamiemartin721 (04 Jun 2015 9.55am)
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 The Sash  Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 04 Jun 15 10.13am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Jun 2015 9.52am
Worth noting, that most of the foreign countries I've visited, its generally been an advantage being white and British, probably because you are assumed to be rich (and are by local standards) or good marriage prospects (see the first). My friends in Vietnam live like kings doing jobs that here they'd struggle to make rent. When they cross over into Cambodia they get to live like gods. A friend of mine works in South Korea, in a position well above his qualification, because having a white british guy as an executive carries prestige (he'd be paid more if he was American mind). Here, he'd be lucky to be a manager. Even the police treat them as special. Its important to remember that in a lot of foreign countries, being White and European is a massive advantage (but its generally because you're rich by comparison). That said, the same traits would get you murdered, robbed and buried somewhere discrete in certain parts of town, and certainly if you were say injured by a driver in Vietnam, there is a distinct possibility that they'd kill you, and take the jail time over the risk of having to pay you damages. Edited by jamiemartin721 (04 Jun 2015 9.55am) So swings and roundabouts then..
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| Hoof Hearted 04 Jun 15 11.07am | |
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I hope these foreign oiks don't turn up to my member's club in Mayfair... they sound awful fellows.... I doubt they would know the etiquette at luncheon. Our doorman 'Hodgkins' would give them short shrift!
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jun 15 11.21am |
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Quote The Sash at 04 Jun 2015 10.13am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Jun 2015 9.52am
Worth noting, that most of the foreign countries I've visited, its generally been an advantage being white and British, probably because you are assumed to be rich (and are by local standards) or good marriage prospects (see the first). My friends in Vietnam live like kings doing jobs that here they'd struggle to make rent. When they cross over into Cambodia they get to live like gods. A friend of mine works in South Korea, in a position well above his qualification, because having a white british guy as an executive carries prestige (he'd be paid more if he was American mind). Here, he'd be lucky to be a manager. Even the police treat them as special. Its important to remember that in a lot of foreign countries, being White and European is a massive advantage (but its generally because you're rich by comparison). That said, the same traits would get you murdered, robbed and buried somewhere discrete in certain parts of town, and certainly if you were say injured by a driver in Vietnam, there is a distinct possibility that they'd kill you, and take the jail time over the risk of having to pay you damages. Edited by jamiemartin721 (04 Jun 2015 9.55am) So swings and roundabouts then.. Indeed, as they say in White Vietnam, always tip your guide generously, and look both ways before crossing the road.
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 04 Jun 15 11.23am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Jun 2015 1.56am
Quote serial thriller at 03 Jun 2015 10.40pm
I'm not saying that racism is the sole reason for anything. There are many, many forms of discrimination which are embroiled within society, and all of them should be tackled. What I'm saying is that racism remains prevalent within British society, and leads us to tolerate unimaginable harm and suffering to people in the poorest of conditions. I wouldn't even say that racism is the issue itself: it is the justification for us turning a blind eye to, for example, slavery in China, mass-murder in the middle east or even incarceration in Britain. The beautiful thing about politics is it gives you an avenue to help people who for one reason or other can't help themselves. That could be a disabled person who can't work being provided for by the state so they can lead a dignified life, or a child in a third world country being given a decent education. That's why when I see those people drowning in the mediterranean and our society's primary concern being ourselves I despair, because if we were in their position, we would be desperate for help. People die in horrible ways everyday unseen or seen from a camera....Are they helped? Seeing dead children in the Mediterranean is no doubt a disaster as is a child unseen starving to death....But it is by no means the responsibility of anyone here. Most people only feel responsible for what is in their sphere of influence. Then why do people feel so passionately about immigration, or global warming, considering that both things are outside of their sphere of influence? The anniversary of 9/11 is still a day of significant commemoration, not just in America but in Britain too. Yet more people have died in the Mediterranean already this year than died that day. So why is one seen as so more relevant and personal than the other? You're far more likely to drown than be killed by a terrorist, so the argument that it represents more of a threat to individual security is nonsense. Of course race plays a role in how people regard tragedy.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| npn Crowborough 04 Jun 15 11.32am |
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Quote serial thriller at 04 Jun 2015 11.23am
Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Jun 2015 1.56am
Quote serial thriller at 03 Jun 2015 10.40pm
I'm not saying that racism is the sole reason for anything. There are many, many forms of discrimination which are embroiled within society, and all of them should be tackled. What I'm saying is that racism remains prevalent within British society, and leads us to tolerate unimaginable harm and suffering to people in the poorest of conditions. I wouldn't even say that racism is the issue itself: it is the justification for us turning a blind eye to, for example, slavery in China, mass-murder in the middle east or even incarceration in Britain. The beautiful thing about politics is it gives you an avenue to help people who for one reason or other can't help themselves. That could be a disabled person who can't work being provided for by the state so they can lead a dignified life, or a child in a third world country being given a decent education. That's why when I see those people drowning in the mediterranean and our society's primary concern being ourselves I despair, because if we were in their position, we would be desperate for help. People die in horrible ways everyday unseen or seen from a camera....Are they helped? Seeing dead children in the Mediterranean is no doubt a disaster as is a child unseen starving to death....But it is by no means the responsibility of anyone here. Most people only feel responsible for what is in their sphere of influence. Then why do people feel so passionately about immigration, or global warming, considering that both things are outside of their sphere of influence? The anniversary of 9/11 is still a day of significant commemoration, not just in America but in Britain too. Yet more people have died in the Mediterranean already this year than died that day. So why is one seen as so more relevant and personal than the other? You're far more likely to drown than be killed by a terrorist, so the argument that it represents more of a threat to individual security is nonsense. Of course race plays a role in how people regard tragedy.
It's like reports of plane crashes : "235 killed, including least 2 britons" - I think it's far less to do with race than nationality and derived local interest.
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 04 Jun 15 11.45am |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 04 Jun 2015 9.19am
Quote serial thriller at 03 Jun 2015 10.40pm
I'm not saying that racism is the sole reason for anything. There are many, many forms of discrimination which are embroiled within society, and all of them should be tackled. What I'm saying is that racism remains prevalent within British society, and leads us to tolerate unimaginable harm and suffering to people in the poorest of conditions. I wouldn't even say that racism is the issue itself: it is the justification for us turning a blind eye to, for example, slavery in China, mass-murder in the middle east or even incarceration in Britain. The beautiful thing about politics is it gives you an avenue to help people who for one reason or other can't help themselves. That could be a disabled person who can't work being provided for by the state so they can lead a dignified life, or a child in a third world country being given a decent education. That's why when I see those people drowning in the mediterranean and our society's primary concern being ourselves I despair, because if we were in their position, we would be desperate for help. Have you not just contradicted yourself there? Is racism the issue or isn't it? To take your three examples: 1. Slavery in China Do we, as a country, "tolerate" these things at all? I'm not sure we do. We disapprove of slavery in China. It's just pretty difficult for us to do anything about it. Is it your average British punter "enslaving" the Chinese, or is it their communist government and repressive "Hukou" system? If Chinese people are enslaving other Chinese people, how is that evidence that Britain is racist? We definitely disapprove of murder in the middle east. Well, the stuff done by our enemies (eg, IS). The stuff done by our allies (eg, public beheadings in Saudi Arabia) we turn a blind eye to because we want to sell them weapons. But again, is this racism? Or is it just Realpolitik? I think you have a utopian vision of a world where there is no poverty, war or injustice. And, like most Utopians, you're seeking simple answers. If only Britain wasn't "structurally" racist, we'd all live in a rainbow world with everybody holding hands, eh?
Let's take the first two examples: slavery in China, and bombing the middle east. Both are necessary conditions for the consumerist society we live in. Were Chinese workers paid a living wage, our iPhones would triple in price, while our bombing of Libya has resulted in the falling of the price of oil. Obviously both situations are complex - there are vested interests aside from ours which cause these atrocities to happen - but from a typical Briton's perspective, the result of Syrian or Chinese deaths is a more comfortable life for us. So where does race fit in? When I say race is the justification for our tolerating these issues I mean this: Evidently we as a society tolerate circumstances abroad which involve intolerable oppression, violence and humiliation, because if we didn't tolerate them they wouldn't be occurring. We as a society have the collective economic and political power to reject these realities. But to tolerate something we must have a justification for doing so, and that's where racism, I believe, plays a part. In terms of the Middle East, the national perception of Muslims as being radical zealots immediately opposes them to our perception of white westerners as being more rational, less superstitious and therefore more worthy of life. The example of the Chinese workers is a more insidious, implicit example of how we as a society denigrates the oriental as being culturally inferior to the west. Edward Said has done a lot of really interesting work on it, but all I'd say is this: were there slaves working in this country, or France, or even Poland, would our reaction to them be as ambivalent as it is towards Chinese workers? Clearly not. Im not saying racism is the sole issue we face as a society, but I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think it plays a role in how we justify the immoralities which hold our society together.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| TheJudge 04 Jun 15 11.49am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Jun 2015 9.45am
Quote TheJudge at 04 Jun 2015 9.15am
What we have is a country where a significant minority think they are in a position to cast moral judgment on behalf of others. Your Liberal/left if you like. They are more preoccupied with the plight of others,or at least like to give that impression to claim the fashionable moral high ground, than themselves and their families. People of other races and nations can look after themselves and there are laws that try to enforce fairness. I'm sure the vast majority of them don't spend their time fretting over the plight of the white man or the British. Why should they ? "Racism" is currently a vehicle by which people pursue self interest and the liberals feel superior. In terms of genuine racism and bigotry,Britain doesn't even register on the chart. Edited by TheJudge (04 Jun 2015 9.15am) Lucky the right wing haven't done that ever, such as on new age travelers, welfare recipients, the mentally ill, drug users, ravers, homosexuals, transgendered so on and so forth. The problem isn't with left or right, its with the idea of thinking in terms of Morality and the idea that your morality can be applied to other people and that will change them somehow for their 'own good'. We as a society need to stop thinking 'we are right, they are wrong' and instead use critical analysis to ascertain the impact and problems caused by an issue, rather than just the fact it annoys the people who vote for us or is a 'big media story issue'. The sad fact about the British is an increasing desire to control others morality through authority, rather than just protecting the rights and evidenced best interests of the people involved and affected (even if they don't vote for you).
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| Stirlingsays 04 Jun 15 11.53am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Jun 2015 9.45am
We as a society need to stop thinking 'we are right, they are wrong' and instead use critical analysis to ascertain the impact and problems caused by an issue, rather than just the fact it annoys the people who vote for us or is a 'big media story issue'. The sad fact about the British is an increasing desire to control others morality through authority, rather than just protecting the rights and evidenced best interests of the people involved and affected (even if they don't vote for you).
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I'd say your attitudes towards drugs for example take this position. You appear very sure that you are right on this topic, yet the evidence base from around the world presents a very mixed picture. In terms of morality I'd say my experience with the people I've met through life who held to a personal moral code have been quite positive. They tend to be far more content human beings and more useful for the wider society than those who treat the world and their actions within it akin to a selfish gene, Darwinian model. As for 'forcing morality' onto others.....That itself is very subjective. Any law that exists can be viewed that say. There are many laws out there that I don't personally agree with....The adoption of the word, 'marriage' to describe same sex unions being a recent example. But I accept this 'forced morality' because my belief in a need for a structured coherent society where the majority's viewpoint wins out is stronger.
Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Jun 2015 11.55am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 04 Jun 15 11.53am |
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Quote npn at 04 Jun 2015 11.32am
Quote serial thriller at 04 Jun 2015 11.23am
Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Jun 2015 1.56am
Quote serial thriller at 03 Jun 2015 10.40pm
I'm not saying that racism is the sole reason for anything. There are many, many forms of discrimination which are embroiled within society, and all of them should be tackled. What I'm saying is that racism remains prevalent within British society, and leads us to tolerate unimaginable harm and suffering to people in the poorest of conditions. I wouldn't even say that racism is the issue itself: it is the justification for us turning a blind eye to, for example, slavery in China, mass-murder in the middle east or even incarceration in Britain. The beautiful thing about politics is it gives you an avenue to help people who for one reason or other can't help themselves. That could be a disabled person who can't work being provided for by the state so they can lead a dignified life, or a child in a third world country being given a decent education. That's why when I see those people drowning in the mediterranean and our society's primary concern being ourselves I despair, because if we were in their position, we would be desperate for help. People die in horrible ways everyday unseen or seen from a camera....Are they helped? Seeing dead children in the Mediterranean is no doubt a disaster as is a child unseen starving to death....But it is by no means the responsibility of anyone here. Most people only feel responsible for what is in their sphere of influence. Then why do people feel so passionately about immigration, or global warming, considering that both things are outside of their sphere of influence? The anniversary of 9/11 is still a day of significant commemoration, not just in America but in Britain too. Yet more people have died in the Mediterranean already this year than died that day. So why is one seen as so more relevant and personal than the other? You're far more likely to drown than be killed by a terrorist, so the argument that it represents more of a threat to individual security is nonsense. Of course race plays a role in how people regard tragedy.
It's like reports of plane crashes : "235 killed, including least 2 britons" - I think it's far less to do with race than nationality and derived local interest.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Stirlingsays 04 Jun 15 11.57am |
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Quote serial thriller at 04 Jun 2015 11.53am
But why should nationality even play a role in tragedy? Is it sadder if a British stranger dies than a Libyan one?
Ok, lets test your logic. Is it sadder to you if your mother or father or child dies rather than a Libyan? If so why? Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Jun 2015 11.58am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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