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General Election 2017


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susmik Flag PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 16 May 17 7.45pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

I am not interested in opinion polls and how other people vote is up to them.

There is a distinctive choice this time and I am inclined to Corbyn he is refreshing.

Regarding our electoral system this is the only occasion I have ever voted when it may make any difference to the result at all.

Unless you are in a marginal it is hardly worth voting we are only marginally a democracy.

Your vote will make no difference whatsoever... like your posts!

 


Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 16 May 17 7.48pm

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch


Are you genuinely trying to compare a government trying to broker a peace deal with Corbyn and his cronies supporting the IRA?

His stance has been well documented.

As for the things he's voted against. It is easy to be a rebel when you're sitting on the back benches. Look at his apparent change on trident


Corbyn supported the ceasefire in Northern Ireland, Labour's policy of 'unity by consent' regarding nationalists, and the opening of diplomatic connections between the British government and the political unit of the IRA, Sinn Fein. This, is undeniably comparable to Thatcher's position, the main difference being that Thatcher was a unionist and Corbyn a nationalist.

Regarding Trident, Corbyn ceded to the party vote on Trident, which was to maintain it. But since the leaked manifesto he has spoken repeatedly against Trident and about pushing to renounce it in party policy. Do you think he should've just fully taken over all policy decisions or something? Aren't leader's meant to be tolerant and inclusive in democracies?

Disagree with his stance, by all means, on Irish nationalism and Trident. I can accept that. But why do you peddle bullsh*t about him which is just factually untrue?

Like I say, there are huge parts of the Establishment who would rather a military dictatorship in this country than a man in charge who wants to work mulitlaterally towards world peace. I only have one more question: why do you think none of the mainstream media outlets mention the factthat one of the two favourites for this upcoming election has almost no chance of taking power, even if his party won? Don't you think that it deserves at least to be mentioned?

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 16 May 17 7.52pm

Originally posted by susmik

Your vote will make no difference whatsoever... like your posts!

It's a lottery Susmik whether your vote matters depends where you live.

I would be happier to not live in this concrete dump to be honest but that's life.

 

matt_himself Flag Matataland 16 May 17 7.58pm

Originally posted by serial thriller


Corbyn supported the ceasefire in Northern Ireland, Labour's policy of 'unity by consent' regarding nationalists, and the opening of diplomatic connections between the British government and the political unit of the IRA, Sinn Fein. This, is undeniably comparable to Thatcher's position, the main difference being that Thatcher was a unionist and Corbyn a nationalist.

Regarding Trident, Corbyn ceded to the party vote on Trident, which was to maintain it. But since the leaked manifesto he has spoken repeatedly against Trident and about pushing to renounce it in party policy. Do you think he should've just fully taken over all policy decisions or something? Aren't leader's meant to be tolerant and inclusive in democracies?

Disagree with his stance, by all means, on Irish nationalism and Trident. I can accept that. But why do you peddle bullsh*t about him which is just factually untrue?

Like I say, there are huge parts of the Establishment who would rather a military dictatorship in this country than a man in charge who wants to work mulitlaterally towards world peace. I only have one more question: why do you think none of the mainstream media outlets mention the factthat one of the two favourites for this upcoming election has almost no chance of taking power, even if his party won? Don't you think that it deserves at least to be mentioned?

What source do you credit for the last paragraph? Which 'huge parts' of establishment do want a military dictatorship instead of Jezza? Have they gone on record with this stance?

Very interested in whom these people are.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 16 May 17 8.16pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

I don't think it exists.

Yes I looked as well but couldn't find it.

 

serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 16 May 17 8.16pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

What source do you credit for the last paragraph? Which 'huge parts' of establishment do want a military dictatorship instead of Jezza? Have they gone on record with this stance?

Very interested in whom these people are.

General Hughton... [Link]

Echoing this in the Times... [Link]

And if you think it's implausible, read about these... [Link]

And...

[Link]

These are important things I believe everyone should know about the state of our democracy. Again, all I'll do is ask the question: why do you think this isn't reported, when it affects the election we are heading towards so dramatically?

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 16 May 17 8.23pm

Originally posted by susmik

That link is dated: Tuesday 18 August 2015 20.25 BST

So really old news now.

It still happened and under this government's watch. People on here gong on about Corbyn in the 80s.

It's indicative of this government's attitude towards those less well off.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 16 May 17 8.25pm

Originally posted by susmik

But they do that is a known fact. Labour think by taxing the better paid people they can make all these wonderful work like, Nationalise the railways, the post office, the water companies etc.. what a load of tosh. It has been proved by George Osborne that by lowering the tax threshold on the rich the government will rake in more money as when you tax the better off with high taxes they either move away or stop in vesting. Labour has ALWAYS been a high taxing and borrowing party and is why we are in the sh1t we are and paying back so much money. Labour if in power would bankrupt the country and we would ALLbe worse off as happened before.

Conservatives are the party of high borrowing. Get your facts straight. Osborne austerity and tax policy was a disaster.

 

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 16 May 17 8.25pm

Regarding Trident and if Labour get in there will be a strategic defence review and JC will be able to ascertain the defence chiefs' opinion on whether Trident is a deterrent or not.

It is by no means a given that their view will be that it is and they are aware of the run-down state of our conventional forces to help pay for it.

Is there an alternative cheaper missile system and is it effective?

There are still several years available to use the present Trident system it would not be leaving the nuclear deterrent to defer renewal.

IMO Trident is out-dated cold war thinking.


 

Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 16 May 17 8.29pm

Originally posted by serial thriller


Corbyn supported the ceasefire in Northern Ireland, Labour's policy of 'unity by consent' regarding nationalists, and the opening of diplomatic connections between the British government and the political unit of the IRA, Sinn Fein. This, is undeniably comparable to Thatcher's position, the main difference being that Thatcher was a unionist and Corbyn a nationalist.

Regarding Trident, Corbyn ceded to the party vote on Trident, which was to maintain it. But since the leaked manifesto he has spoken repeatedly against Trident and about pushing to renounce it in party policy. Do you think he should've just fully taken over all policy decisions or something? Aren't leader's meant to be tolerant and inclusive in democracies?

Disagree with his stance, by all means, on Irish nationalism and Trident. I can accept that. But why do you peddle bullsh*t about him which is just factually untrue?

Like I say, there are huge parts of the Establishment who would rather a military dictatorship in this country than a man in charge who wants to work mulitlaterally towards world peace. I only have one more question: why do you think none of the mainstream media outlets mention the factthat one of the two favourites for this upcoming election has almost no chance of taking power, even if his party won? Don't you think that it deserves at least to be mentioned?

I haven't peddled any bulls***. He stood on multiple platforms supporting the IRA. That is a fact. Dress it up how you want but he supported the IRA, terrorists who were killing British policemen, prison officers and civilians.

My point about Trident was simply to illustrate that you cannot say how he would have reacted to the multiple scenarios you listed as demonstrated regarding his position on Trident. Like I said it is easy to protest from the back benches. I mentioned God knows how many pages earlier that a good politician will change their mind depending on the situation and change of circumstances. It is about adapting. However some changes are harder to sell than others, especially if they go against the previous 30 years.

As for your last paragraph care to expand?

 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

matt_himself Flag Matataland 16 May 17 8.31pm

Originally posted by serial thriller

General Hughton... [Link]

Echoing this in the Times... [Link]

And if you think it's implausible, read about these... [Link]

And...

[Link]

These are important things I believe everyone should know about the state of our democracy. Again, all I'll do is ask the question: why do you think this isn't reported, when it affects the election we are heading towards so dramatically?

So your 'evidence' of 'huge chunks of the establishment preferring a military dictatorship to Corbyn' (your words) are:

A. An interview with General Hughton, who explains how Jezza's position on the 'pressing the button' is at odds with the concept of a deterrent;
B. An 'unnamed general' being 'quoted' in an 'inte view';
C. What a surprise, a leftie chucks in the 'Zinoviev letter', something that happened 90 odd years ago as proof it 'could happen';
D. Some article about something that might, or might not, of happened 50 years ago;

These aren't 'important things'. They are tenuous, unlinked, paranoid twaddle put together hurriedly to try and back up your assertion. This 'evidence' does not prove that 'huge chunks of the establishment prefer a military dictatorship to Corbyn'.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 16 May 17 8.37pm

Originally posted by serial thriller

General Hughton... [Link]

Echoing this in the Times... [Link]

And if you think it's implausible, read about these... [Link]

And...

[Link]

These are important things I believe everyone should know about the state of our democracy. Again, all I'll do is ask the question: why do you think this isn't reported, when it affects the election we are heading towards so dramatically?

Not sure the general really said much that is controversial except you could argue whether a general should be commenting at all. Maria Eagle seemed OK with it.

As for the coup, that would be a worry, if I remember correctly there was genuine concern about Wilson being a spy and only (relatively) recently he has finally been cleared? On the back of someone dying Iirc?

 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 16 May 17 8.37pm

Originally posted by susmik

That link is dated: Tuesday 18 August 2015 20.25 BST

So really old news now.

So is the Gordon Brown gold nonsense. That keeps cropping up.

 

pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 16 May 17 8.52pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

So is the Gordon Brown gold nonsense. That keeps cropping up.

Imagine not mentioning Thatcher on this forum.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 16 May 17 8.55pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

So your 'evidence' of 'huge chunks of the establishment preferring a military dictatorship to Corbyn' (your words) are:

A. An interview with General Hughton, who explains how Jezza's position on the 'pressing the button' is at odds with the concept of a deterrent;
B. An 'unnamed general' being 'quoted' in an 'inte view';
C. What a surprise, a leftie chucks in the 'Zinoviev letter', something that happened 90 odd years ago as proof it 'could happen';
D. Some article about something that might, or might not, of happened 50 years ago;

These aren't 'important things'. They are tenuous, unlinked, paranoid twaddle put together hurriedly to try and back up your assertion. This 'evidence' does not prove that 'huge chunks of the establishment prefer a military dictatorship to Corbyn'.

The reliability of the links is up to you. What I would say is that Generals are constiutionally meant to remain politically neutral, and yet he publically spoke out against the leader of the opposition. His quote that power making certain realisations apparent is incredible IMO.

What I would say if you wanna find out more, is read the military forums, and see what people inside the force think about this. I saw a link to it after that Times leak and you had almost unanimous agreement that this was a reliable source and that Corbyn wouldn't be allowed to take over.

I do agree take everything with a pinch of salt, but the fact that it doesn't even enter in to election conversation is absolutely astounding to me.

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 16 May 17 8.59pm

An interesting take on today's manifesto launch

[Link]

 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

Mstrobez Flag 16 May 17 9.00pm

Originally posted by susmik

But they do that is a known fact. Labour think by taxing the better paid people they can make all these wonderful work like, Nationalise the railways, the post office, the water companies etc.. what a load of tosh. It has been proved by George Osborne that by lowering the tax threshold on the rich the government will rake in more money as when you tax the better off with high taxes they either move away or stop in vesting. Labour has ALWAYS been a high taxing and borrowing party and is why we are in the sh1t we are and paying back so much money. Labour if in power would bankrupt the country and we would ALLbe worse off as happened before.

You have your opinion. Read my original post where I explained why I think labour hating the rich is untrue and then actually explain why they do without just saying there policies are nonsense. I'm genuinely intrigued, not in a sarcastic way. It's about a fairer society in my opinion. But please explain exactly HOW labour would bankrupt the country, rather than just saying they will based on tax will be a bit higher and everyone with money will f*** off. Which is clearly a bit of an exagerration. If you actually read the manifesto, economically it really isn't that punishing of those who have more money. Do people really believe 5p tax increase is really more of an issue than Nurses going to food banks? The Tories are allowing this to happen, things like this in society should be viewed as a crisis and we should all chip in to sort it out.

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

matt_himself Flag Matataland 16 May 17 9.04pm

Originally posted by serial thriller

The reliability of the links is up to you. What I would say is that Generals are constiutionally meant to remain politically neutral, and yet he publically spoke out against the leader of the opposition. His quote that power making certain realisations apparent is incredible IMO.

What I would say if you wanna find out more, is read the military forums, and see what people inside the force think about this. I saw a link to it after that Times leak and you had almost unanimous agreement that this was a reliable source and that Corbyn wouldn't be allowed to take over.

I do agree take everything with a pinch of salt, but the fact that it doesn't even enter in to election conversation is absolutely astounding to me.

No, it is up to you to provide reliable evidence to back up your position.

Until you do so, your 'position' will be automatically dismissed as paranoid, politically driven drivel.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Stirlingsays Flag 16 May 17 9.05pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Regarding Trident and if Labour get in there will be a strategic defence review and JC will be able to ascertain the defence chiefs' opinion on whether Trident is a deterrent or not.

It is by no means a given that their view will be that it is and they are aware of the run-down state of our conventional forces to help pay for it.

Is there an alternative cheaper missile system and is it effective?

There are still several years available to use the present Trident system it would not be leaving the nuclear deterrent to defer renewal.

IMO Trident is out-dated cold war thinking.


Outdated?....Russia and China with expressionist mindsets and you call this outdated.

What matters is ensuring that it is probable that attacking us with nuclear weapons would result in an unacceptable loss to themselves.

Whatever the system is.... it is only the unpleasant result that matters. The name of it is unimportant. If it were true that our system was ineffective then the best policy would be to correct that as quickly as possible.

Corbyn is totally wedded to non use regardless. His party isn't but they don't get to decide if push came to shove.

A CND mindset in charge at the top of government is unacceptable.

Edited by Stirlingsays (16 May 2017 9.07pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Mstrobez Flag 16 May 17 9.07pm

Our services clearly lack resources. You only have to experience it to know that many key services are underfunded and cannot cope. Labour are raising tax by a modest amount to provide funding to areas of our society we all hope we never have to rely on, but essentially it's almost inevitable that at some point in time we will, or a member of our family will. It's all good to tell us "yeah but we're building for the future", well when do we start investing again? This is the problem I've always had with tories, they ALWYS have money to provide for causes that seem so insignificant to the ordinary but the argument is "well yeah but this will help our economy and if we don't do it well all be f***ed anyway", yet they never seem to sort anything out that those worse off can actually benefit from. How many more years of austerity do we face? When do we have enough money? When are the tories going to actually help those who rely on help the most?

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

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