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Ketteridge Brighton 20 Jun 16 5.12pm
Originally posted by OknotOK Your choice. I have no need to sway you either way. But that is what the evidence shows. Chose to believe your "common sense" or not. Good post, this to me is the whole problem with this referendum the use and abuse of stats from both sides. Leaves £350 m or that turkey will towed to the Isle of Wight to make it easier for them to get in or remains £30billion of tax raised or spending cuts. We are playing to those allow narrative to rule over what the facts actually suggest One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

Ketteridge

Brighton 20 Jun 16 5.12pm

Originally posted by OknotOK

Your choice. I have no need to sway you either way. But that is what the evidence shows. Chose to believe your "common sense" or not.

Good post, this to me is the whole problem with this referendum the use and abuse of stats from both sides. Leaves £350 m or that turkey will towed to the Isle of Wight to make it easier for them to get in or remains £30billion of tax raised or spending cuts. We are playing to those allow narrative to rule over what the facts actually suggest

One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

Kermit8 Hevon 20 Jun 16 5.13pm
Originally posted by Stuk Why pose a simplistic, pointless question? If you think personal experience counts for nothing then fair enough. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 20 Jun 16 5.13pm

Originally posted by Stuk

Why pose a simplistic, pointless question?

If you think personal experience counts for nothing then fair enough.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

Kermit8 Hevon 20 Jun 16 5.18pm
Originally posted by Part Time James Another question I have, not trying to be provocative, but let's say it's about immigration and nothing else. If everyone voting to remain is so certain that immigration isn't causing us a problem because there is a sensible level of immigration, the people that enter aren't a burden on our taxes and instead are good, hard working people that contribute to our economy (I post this not to dispute any of that) how different would controlled immigration be? Surely controlled immigration is a concept that welcomes a sensible level of immigration with people working hard and contributing to our economy. Who is it that we're going to stop coming in if we vote to Leave? The 65,000 annual EU citizens who don't have an immediate job to go to though obviously plenty find employment soon enough. I know I know - it's a City the size of Truro every year!! Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 20 Jun 16 5.18pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

Another question I have, not trying to be provocative, but let's say it's about immigration and nothing else.

If everyone voting to remain is so certain that immigration isn't causing us a problem because there is a sensible level of immigration, the people that enter aren't a burden on our taxes and instead are good, hard working people that contribute to our economy (I post this not to dispute any of that) how different would controlled immigration be?

Surely controlled immigration is a concept that welcomes a sensible level of immigration with people working hard and contributing to our economy.

Who is it that we're going to stop coming in if we vote to Leave?

The 65,000 annual EU citizens who don't have an immediate job to go to though obviously plenty find employment soon enough.

I know I know - it's a City the size of Truro every year!!

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 20 Jun 16 5.18pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Immigration is controlled. I'm cooking at the moment, will expand later... Are you naked except for an apron? Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 20 Jun 16 5.18pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Immigration is controlled. I'm cooking at the moment, will expand later...

Are you naked except for an apron?

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

Hrolf The Ganger 20 Jun 16 5.19pm
Originally posted by nickgusset I said certain sections, not all. Learn to read properly before jumping to conclusions. I've a 'get those f*ing foreigners out' as a reason for leaving neighbour, and there's plenty more. Stop denying it. You seem so black and white** (no pun intended) about your choice that it seems you see no downsides to your choice and are blinkered to anything negative about it, responding with 'of course your sort would think that'type remarks without dissemination of arguments. Edited by nickgusset (20 Jun 2016 4.43pm) I'm just responding in kind on a web site where nuanced discussions take a lot of finger energy. There is no excuse for bigotry or racism but there is a case for self interest including jobs, wages, housing, culture, terrorism etc

Hrolf The Ganger

20 Jun 16 5.19pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

I said certain sections, not all. Learn to read properly before jumping to conclusions. I've a 'get those f***ing foreigners out' as a reason for leaving neighbour, and there's plenty more. Stop denying it. You seem so black and white (no pun intended) about your choice that it seems you see no downsides to your choice and are blinkered to anything negative about it, responding with 'of course your sort would think that'type remarks without dissemination of arguments.

Edited by nickgusset (20 Jun 2016 4.43pm)

I'm just responding in kind on a web site where nuanced discussions take a lot of finger energy.

There is no excuse for bigotry or racism but there is a case for self interest including jobs, wages, housing, culture, terrorism etc

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.21pm
Originally posted by Cucking Funt Are you naked except for an apron? This isn't McVicar.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.21pm

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

Are you naked except for an apron?

This isn't McVicar.

mezzer Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 20 Jun 16 5.22pm
I think that anyone who has not made up their mind now is just afraid of taking responsibility for their actions. Unlike a General Election, this referendum has a binary outcome - we stay in or we leave - not strictly true as the issue won't necessarily go away as it needs to be ratified by a Parliament wherein 450 members want to stay. It actually has 4 outcomes - Strong Leave, Narrow Leave, Narrow Stay, Strong Stay - of which the strong leave will probably be the only one that sees our issues dealt with swiftly by the Europeans in order to quell the fires of discontent that will smoulder in Europe. Each of the other outcomes will result in little or no co-operation from Europe as a punishment and a deterrent for other states to follow. For me, personally, the EU is a fatally flawed project. If it doesn't split now, it will in 3, 4, 5 years, who knows how long, but split it will. So why would we vote to stay in a broken model and commit ourselves to the mess that is to come in a few years' time? Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

mezzer

Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 20 Jun 16 5.22pm

I think that anyone who has not made up their mind now is just afraid of taking responsibility for their actions.

Unlike a General Election, this referendum has a binary outcome - we stay in or we leave - not strictly true as the issue won't necessarily go away as it needs to be ratified by a Parliament wherein 450 members want to stay. It actually has 4 outcomes - Strong Leave, Narrow Leave, Narrow Stay, Strong Stay - of which the strong leave will probably be the only one that sees our issues dealt with swiftly by the Europeans in order to quell the fires of discontent that will smoulder in Europe. Each of the other outcomes will result in little or no co-operation from Europe as a punishment and a deterrent for other states to follow.

For me, personally, the EU is a fatally flawed project. If it doesn't split now, it will in 3, 4, 5 years, who knows how long, but split it will. So why would we vote to stay in a broken model and commit ourselves to the mess that is to come in a few years' time?

Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

OknotOK Cockfosters, London 20 Jun 16 5.25pm
Originally posted by Part Time James In many ways I think this is a big part of why I am voting Leave. That it is an opportunity to bring about change, albeit with potential risks, some of which have been acknowledged by Leave, some they'd probably deny. I fear that by voting to remain we'd be bound to remaining in the EU for a considerable amount of time with any future talk of a referendum being snorted at because of what they'll easily be able to paint as a "2016 debacle". That and I feel like the two options we have are: A) Vote for something you know is pretty sht B) Vote for something that has the potential to be great but with there being a risk of it being shtter than option A. For me, Option A is the only one that is guaranteed to be sh*t. Option B could go either way. The interesting thing is that in reality there are 3+ options: - Remain - Leave and set up entirely new relationships - Leave and follow Norwegian model (or Swiss model, or Canadian model) Vote Leave have effectively put forward the middle option because the latter meant accepting free movement. But in reality even if we vote Brexit we'll probably end up with the latter because the majority of MPs are still in favour of the single market. And given the relatively restricted nature of the referendum, they could claim an electoral mandate for doing so even if that wasn't the expected outcome of the majority who voted for Brexit (because we're being asked a linear "in/out" question). Anyway I think I know which way I am voting and I suspect most people do as well (even if they don't quite feel comfortable with the decision yet). My gut is still that the majority of the "don't knows" will be reluctant remainers and we'll see a narrow (4-8 point) remain victory. "It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

OknotOK

Cockfosters, London 20 Jun 16 5.25pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

In many ways I think this is a big part of why I am voting Leave. That it is an opportunity to bring about change, albeit with potential risks, some of which have been acknowledged by Leave, some they'd probably deny.

I fear that by voting to remain we'd be bound to remaining in the EU for a considerable amount of time with any future talk of a referendum being snorted at because of what they'll easily be able to paint as a "2016 debacle".

That and I feel like the two options we have are:

A) Vote for something you know is pretty sh*t
B) Vote for something that has the potential to be great but with there being a risk of it being sh*tter than option A.

For me, Option A is the only one that is guaranteed to be sh*t. Option B could go either way.

The interesting thing is that in reality there are 3+ options:

- Remain
- Leave and set up entirely new relationships
- Leave and follow Norwegian model (or Swiss model, or Canadian model)

Vote Leave have effectively put forward the middle option because the latter meant accepting free movement. But in reality even if we vote Brexit we'll probably end up with the latter because the majority of MPs are still in favour of the single market.

And given the relatively restricted nature of the referendum, they could claim an electoral mandate for doing so even if that wasn't the expected outcome of the majority who voted for Brexit (because we're being asked a linear "in/out"
question).

Anyway I think I know which way I am voting and I suspect most people do as well (even if they don't quite feel comfortable with the decision yet).

My gut is still that the majority of the "don't knows" will be reluctant remainers and we'll see a narrow (4-8 point) remain victory.

"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

Part Time James 20 Jun 16 5.28pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Immigration is controlled. I'm cooking at the moment, will expand later... Well as I say, I wasn't disputing it, mainly because I haven't the facts. I just felt like Leave want to replace controlled immigration with controlled immigration and getting called racist for that view. I can accept that each side want different flavours of it though.

Part Time James

20 Jun 16 5.28pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Immigration is controlled. I'm cooking at the moment, will expand later...

Well as I say, I wasn't disputing it, mainly because I haven't the facts. I just felt like Leave want to replace controlled immigration with controlled immigration and getting called racist for that view. I can accept that each side want different flavours of it though.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.30pm
Driving back home from my mother's in deepest Kent today I saw about 50 leave placards but no remain ones. On the face of it, it would seem that leave is in the ascendancy. However the areas I passed through are sparsely populated. As far as I know metropolitan areas are more remaincentric (made up word of the day) Now I'm going to show my ignorance with this question (and my can't be arsedness to Google). How is the vote decided. Is it constituency by constituency and the winner is the most constituencies won. Or are all votes counted as a whole?

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.30pm

Driving back home from my mother's in deepest Kent today I saw about 50 leave placards but no remain ones.
On the face of it, it would seem that leave is in the ascendancy. However the areas I passed through are sparsely populated. As far as I know metropolitan areas are more remaincentric (made up word of the day)

Now I'm going to show my ignorance with this question (and my can't be arsedness to Google). How is the vote decided. Is it constituency by constituency and the winner is the most constituencies won. Or are all votes counted as a whole?

Part Time James 20 Jun 16 5.32pm
Originally posted by OknotOK The interesting thing is that in reality there are 3+ options: - Remain - Leave and set up entirely new relationships - Leave and follow Norwegian model (or Swiss model, or Canadian model) Vote Leave have effectively put forward the middle option because the latter meant accepting free movement. But in reality even if we vote Brexit we'll probably end up with the latter because the majority of MPs are still in favour of the single market. And given the relatively restricted nature of the referendum, they could claim an electoral mandate for doing so even if that wasn't the expected outcome of the majority who voted for Brexit (because we're being asked a linear "in/out" question). Anyway I think I know which way I am voting and I suspect most people do as well (even if they don't quite feel comfortable with the decision yet). My gut is still that the majority of the "don't knows" will be reluctant remainers and we'll see a narrow (4-8 point) remain victory. I agree with that, I have a feeling don't knows would, by their very nature, select the cautious option (remain)

Part Time James

20 Jun 16 5.32pm

Originally posted by OknotOK

The interesting thing is that in reality there are 3+ options:

- Remain
- Leave and set up entirely new relationships
- Leave and follow Norwegian model (or Swiss model, or Canadian model)

Anyway I think I know which way I am voting and I suspect most people do as well (even if they don't quite feel comfortable with the decision yet).

My gut is still that the majority of the "don't knows" will be reluctant remainers and we'll see a narrow (4-8 point) remain victory.

I agree with that, I have a feeling don't knows would, by their very nature, select the cautious option (remain)

mezzer Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 20 Jun 16 5.35pm
Originally posted by OknotOK The interesting thing is that in reality there are 3+ options: - Remain - Leave and set up entirely new relationships - Leave and follow Norwegian model (or Swiss model, or Canadian model) Vote Leave have effectively put forward the middle option because the latter meant accepting free movement. But in reality even if we vote Brexit we'll probably end up with the latter because the majority of MPs are still in favour of the single market. And given the relatively restricted nature of the referendum, they could claim an electoral mandate for doing so even if that wasn't the expected outcome of the majority who voted for Brexit (because we're being asked a linear "in/out" question). Anyway I think I know which way I am voting and I suspect most people do as well (even if they don't quite feel comfortable with the decision yet). My gut is still that the majority of the "don't knows" will be reluctant remainers and we'll see a narrow (4-8 point) remain victory. The "wobbly pencils" usually swing 3% to the status quo when it comes to it. So if remain are less than 3% in front on the final polls, lump a bet on them winning. Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

mezzer

Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 20 Jun 16 5.35pm

Originally posted by OknotOK

The interesting thing is that in reality there are 3+ options:

- Remain
- Leave and set up entirely new relationships
- Leave and follow Norwegian model (or Swiss model, or Canadian model)

Anyway I think I know which way I am voting and I suspect most people do as well (even if they don't quite feel comfortable with the decision yet).

My gut is still that the majority of the "don't knows" will be reluctant remainers and we'll see a narrow (4-8 point) remain victory.

The "wobbly pencils" usually swing 3% to the status quo when it comes to it. So if remain are less than 3% in front on the final polls, lump a bet on them winning.

Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

Part Time James 20 Jun 16 5.37pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Driving back home from my mother's in deepest Kent today I saw about 50 leave placards but no remain ones. On the face of it, it would seem that leave is in the ascendancy. However the areas I passed through are sparsely populated. As far as I know metropolitan areas are more remaincentric (made up word of the day) Now I'm going to show my ignorance with this question (and my can't be arsedness to Google). How is the vote decided. Is it constituency by constituency and the winner is the most constituencies won. Or are all votes counted as a whole? Blimey, good question! Why do I not know?! I think you'll see a lot of Leave placards in rural areas especially near farms as I think farmers (rightly or wrongly) will believe the Leave vote to benefit them. Also I think Leave campaigners are more passionate about it especially after months of largely being behind in the polls. That alone might swing it if it impacts polling turnout. Probably not, but maybe. Edited by Part Time James (20 Jun 2016 5.40pm)

Part Time James

20 Jun 16 5.37pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Blimey, good question! Why do I not know?!

I think you'll see a lot of Leave placards in rural areas especially near farms as I think farmers (rightly or wrongly) will believe the Leave vote to benefit them.

Also I think Leave campaigners are more passionate about it especially after months of largely being behind in the polls. That alone might swing it if it impacts polling turnout. Probably not, but maybe.

Edited by Part Time James (20 Jun 2016 5.40pm)

Kermit8 Hevon 20 Jun 16 5.37pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Driving back home from my mother's in deepest Kent today I saw about 50 leave placards but no remain ones. On the face of it, it would seem that leave is in the ascendancy. However the areas I passed through are sparsely populated. As far as I know metropolitan areas are more remaincentric (made up word of the day) Now I'm going to show my ignorance with this question (and my can't be arsedness to Google). How is the vote decided. Is it constituency by constituency and the winner is the most constituencies won. Or are all votes counted as a whole? Yep. It's whichever side gets 50.0001% of the vote or more than wins. Quebec back in '96 was something like 49.5/50.5 for independence from Canada. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 20 Jun 16 5.37pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Yep. It's whichever side gets 50.0001% of the vote or more than wins. Quebec back in '96 was something like 49.5/50.5 for independence from Canada.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

mezzer Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 20 Jun 16 5.40pm
Originally posted by Part Time James Blimey, good question! Why do I not know?! I think you'll see a lot of Leave placards in rural areas especially near farms as I think farmers (rightly or wrongly) will believe the Leave vote to benefit them. Also I think Leave campaigners are more passionate about it especially after months of largeky being behind in the polls. That alone might swing it if it impacts polling turnout. Probably not, but maybe. I think livestock are natural OUT voters. They feel threatened by all the Argentian beef and New Zealand lamb. Hang on. How can that be if it's impossible to trade outside Europe if we leave? Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

mezzer

Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 20 Jun 16 5.40pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

Blimey, good question! Why do I not know?!

I think you'll see a lot of Leave placards in rural areas especially near farms as I think farmers (rightly or wrongly) will believe the Leave vote to benefit them.

Also I think Leave campaigners are more passionate about it especially after months of largeky being behind in the polls. That alone might swing it if it impacts polling turnout. Probably not, but maybe.

I think livestock are natural OUT voters. They feel threatened by all the Argentian beef and New Zealand lamb.

Hang on. How can that be if it's impossible to trade outside Europe if we leave?

Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 20 Jun 16 5.41pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Driving back home from my mother's in deepest Kent today I saw about 50 leave placards but no remain ones. Driving back on the A24 the other day between Dorking and Horsham I saw a large "Vote Leave" board which had been the subject of graffiti.Above "Vote Leave" were the words "Dont" and under was written "I can make my own mind up...." etc etc.Couldn't read it all as I was driving.On the whole I have witnessed a number of "Out" posters and only a couple of "Remain" ones.

Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 20 Jun 16 5.41pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Driving back home from my mother's in deepest Kent today I saw about 50 leave placards but no remain ones.

Driving back on the A24 the other day between Dorking and Horsham I saw a large "Vote Leave" board which had been the subject of graffiti.Above "Vote Leave" were the words "Dont" and under was written "I can make my own mind up...." etc etc.Couldn't read it all as I was driving.On the whole I have witnessed a number of "Out" posters and only a couple of "Remain" ones.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.46pm
Originally posted by Willo Driving back on the A24 the other day between Dorking and Horsham I saw a large "Vote Leave" board which had been the subject of graffiti.Above "Vote Leave" were the words "Dont" and under was written "I can make my own mind up...." etc etc.Couldn't read it all as I was driving.On the whole I have witnessed a number of "Out" posters and only a couple of "Remain" ones. The remain logo reminds me of LWT 's old logo

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.46pm

Originally posted by Willo

The remain logo reminds me of LWT 's old logo

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.55pm
Was talking to my mum about the referendum today. It's taken her a while but she's voting leave. She is wavering a little because, she said, 'the bloke who runs the strawberry and raspberry farm relies on temporary labour from the EU to pick the fruit as locals won't do it is voting remain' She asked him why the locals won't do it. His response, 'the locals are lazy b******s who are scared of a bit of hard work'

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 5.55pm

Was talking to my mum about the referendum today. It's taken her a while but she's voting leave. She is wavering a little because, she said, 'the bloke who runs the strawberry and raspberry farm relies on temporary labour from the EU to pick the fruit as locals won't do it is voting remain' She asked him why the locals won't do it. His response, 'the locals are lazy b******s who are scared of a bit of hard work'

Hrolf The Ganger 20 Jun 16 6.06pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Was talking to my mum about the referendum today. It's taken her a while but she's voting leave. She is wavering a little because, she said, 'the bloke who runs the strawberry and raspberry farm relies on temporary labour from the EU to pick the fruit as locals won't do it is voting remain' She asked him why the locals won't do it. His response, 'the locals are lazy b******s who are scared of a bit of hard work' I like this mythology that the British are lazy. The British have different aspirations and a better standard of living to those migrants who come here to pick fruit. Maybe if the farmer could pay better wages because he wasn't being squeezed by the buyer, then it might be different.

Hrolf The Ganger

20 Jun 16 6.06pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

I like this mythology that the British are lazy. The British have different aspirations and a better standard of living to those migrants who come here to pick fruit.

Maybe if the farmer could pay better wages because he wasn't being squeezed by the buyer, then it might be different.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 6.10pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I like this mythology that the British are lazy. The British have different aspirations and a better standard of living to those migrants who come here to pick fruit. Maybe if the farmer could pay better wages because he wasn't being squeezed by the buyer, then it might be different. Yep, the death of local shops due to the rise of supermarkets since Thatcher's vision has forced him to use a foreign workforce. It's Thatcher's fault. Again.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jun 16 6.10pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I like this mythology that the British are lazy. The British have different aspirations and a better standard of living to those migrants who come here to pick fruit.

Maybe if the farmer could pay better wages because he wasn't being squeezed by the buyer, then it might be different.

Yep, the death of local shops due to the rise of supermarkets since Thatcher's vision has forced him to use a foreign workforce. It's Thatcher's fault. Again.

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