DITTO Completely agree with all of that. The EU is still panicking because we ARE leaving whether they like it or not. They have a lot more to lose than us and they know it.

When we finally get our freedom the Irish need to start using what's between their ears a bit more, as they cannot see the wood for the trees IMO.

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

To be honest, Brexit hurts both of us with the short-term 'shock' perhaps more intensely felt in the UK although I suspect that it will all go far more smoothly than people anticipate (Project Fear makes for great TV but just look up reports about how ready Calais is. They want the traffic to keep flowing) but once out we can react much quicker than the EU ever can. We can lower corporation tax, sign trade deals and generally act in a much faster way than the EU ever can in terms of commerce. The UK recovers quickly from it and has a far more flexible Economic culture/tradition. The EU knows all of this and fears it greatly. Hence why they have sought to stick hand-cuffs on us.

As to Ireland, then in someways, I feel a little bit of sympathy for them. The EU have patently used them and Mays regime hardly offered up much real resistance, being more than willing to effectively sell the country out over this back-stop. Dublin had every reason to believe it could set itself up as having a veto over what Britain does or does not do in the future and I suspect its leadership got a little carried away with that. With the reality being that whilst the UK might well catch a summer cold from a hard/clean Brexit, The Republic catches the flu.

And that is not good, despite how tempting it might be to rubbed that t***s Varadkar's nose in it, the truth is that Ireland's prosperity is wrapped up in the UK's and we should never forget that.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

You need to understand that for sections of the EU hierarchy Brexit represents a far bigger problem than just trade.

I have always expressed a rather heretical view in Leaver circles that actually it would probably be in the UK's interest to continue to pay the EU 'x' amount every year just to maintain the status quo in terms of borders and so on, with of course us being free to do our own trade deals. The reality is that the UK is a wealthy nation, with a healthy commercial culture and is actually rather well positioned, for a variety of factors, to benefit more and more from increasing globalisation.

You could even make an argument that perhaps we could still look to protect Irish agricultural imports into the UK market because once again, we do owe Ireland a duty of care of a sorts. And helping others build up their infrastructure and so on has a genuine long term benefit for the UK, even once we have left the EU but for those at the heart of the EU project, our departure represents a serious crisis of confidence. We leave and thrive and it throws a complete spanner into the wider EU project because others might want to join us.

Hence the EU simply cannot allow us to depart without kicking up a huge stink. It needs to punish us and so far, has been aided and abetted in that by our Remainer political establishment. Absolute treachery by any measure in my opinion and May and her circle will be judged by history accordingly. Not only the worst PM ever but the one who actually sort to betray this country.

Logic would dictate a trade deal and one that is easily done. But this is the EU. An institution that ups sticks every month to spend 4 days in Strasbourg for no logical reason. Absolute insanity that by itself tells you all you need to know about the dysfunction at the heart of it.

Edited by Matov (06 Aug 2019 8.15pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Problem is that the EU is a political project. You only need to look at the single currency and the inclusion of Greece in the first place to understand what is driving the entire madness.

The EU is a wounded Animal. I know the Remainer narrative is that it is a unified body but the truth is that it is bleeding from almost every orifice and has huge contradictions at its very heart, any one of which could cause it to implode. I can only comment on the Croatian position but from what I hear, most Croatians loathe the EU but, and this is the part that most Brits fail to comprehend, have such little faith in their own national Government given the rampant corruption that even a place as venal and self-serving as Brussels appears a better option than their own domestic politicians.

And I suspect a similar notion is prevalent in many of smaller EU nations. Ireland is a perfect example. From its POV the EU gave it a proper road network and has contributed massively to its success. Whereas its own politicians effectively screwed it over, time and time again and bailed out its banks by lumbering its population with a horrendous debt.

That is the EU's strength in that millions deem it less horrendous than their own political leaders.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

The odds for no deal are shortening up, which I'd say matches the landscape right now.

If that's how it pans out I wonder if we'll reach a place where we press the pause button with immigration. As an issue it's reached the point where it's viewed in either a light of, you either love foreigners so much you want to let millions of people in, or you openly or secretly hate them and don't want anyone moving here. Obviously those positions don't accurately reflect most peoples view though, so I can see sense in just pausing and creating a sense of stasis. A 'this is who we are' moment for the country that dampens down the rhetoric, and gets us into a place mentally where we view immigration policy as a long term decision and option, rather than an obligation that tells us something profoundly negative about who we are if we aren't beckoning people in by the thousand.

Of course the more cynical side of me says that whatever the outcome, the deal, the no deal, nothing will change in that regard anyway. That removing one obstacle just reveals another.

An expected stand off at this point really.

He definitely seems to be setting the stage for that in my view. No doubt they are weighing up the options. My concern would be that it'll be a repeat of the last one. Another finely balanced national waste of time, but than of course its down to the individual who to vote for and BoJo is certainly a different proposition to May.

This is very well put. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. It's better for those vehemently against Brexit to take it on the chin, see what the next few years offer and then evaluate from there. I do feel like we've been set on the same path for so long that it's just become 'what life is', when really whoever you are and whatever your personal politics are, it's good for them to be tested by other realities, outcomes and political climates, as it helps formulate a more complete view of the world.

Not so sure. Is the Remain postion truly globalist? The EU is essentially a protection racket, looking to ensure that a series of European industries are effectively offered protection against the slings and arrows of increasingly globalised trade.

The EU want that backstop because they don't want the UK to sign trade deals with other countries.

One of the reasons I supported Leave is because I believe that due to globalisation the notion of supranational organisations such as the EU are an anachronism. In the 20th century there was perhaps an argument but now? No. Its time has passed.

Also how would you marry up the Common Agricultural Policy with your Nationalist/Globalist narrative? The CAP is perhaps the most nationalist policy out there and lays at the very heart of why the EU not only exists but how it operates.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Johnson wants Parliament to scupper Brexit. That is the point of this all. That is the ground over which he wants to fight a snap election. 'Back Brexit, Back Boris.' Or words to that effect.

Hence them going, or appearing to, hell for leather for a No Deal exit on October 31st.

Johnson is about legacy. He has got to number 10 and now sees Brexit as his Churchillian moment in history. He is desperate for Remain MP's, especially Labour ones, to scupper his plans, desperate for any excuse to call a GE.

Appointing Cummings is the key to understanding all of this. Creates a bogeyman that the Remainers are genuinely scared of, rightly or wrongly. And sends one hell of a message to the EU and Ireland, who are already making conciliatory noises because a hard-border ONLY hurts them. To the UK it is a blip. Barely registering given that almost none of our trade actually crosses that border.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Insightful comments. Do you think that the result of a GE is a formality though?