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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Matov  08 Aug 19 12.20pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
It's globalist in the idea of open borders and multi-country trade pacts. But I see it more as authoritarians (EU, UK establishment) vs individuals (rights and free speech). It is all for open borders for some. That is the key here. And on trade, it is beyond protectionist. Coffee is a great example. You need to ask yourself how a country such as Germany, which does not grow a single coffee bean, can be amongst the biggest exporters of coffee in the world? I am willing to accept all sorts of claims about the EU but this notion that it is somehow promoting globalisation is an absolute fallacy. The EU sells the UK an entire raft of agricultural products that we could buy a lot cheaper elsewhere. And it is desperate to protect that.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Matov 08 Aug 19 12.30pm |
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Originally posted by dollardays
Insightful comments. Do you think that the result of a GE is a formality though? If Brexit is the primary narrative then I suspect it is Johnsons to lose. The context here is to understand how both the June 2016 and the recent Euro-Election vote panned out on a constituency basis. And it was overwhelmingly pro-leave. I think in June 2016 the vote broke down to roughly 400 Leave seats compared to 200 remain. It is why Corbyn has resisted so hard against making Labour the party of Remain because he is aware of the maths. Johnson knows he has to fight on the grounds of Brexit. No other way of looking at it. Hence what we are seeing now. Ramping up the rhetoric to provoke the Remain side into hysteria. Trust me, we ain't seen nothing yet. Johnson gets to lead a Tory Party that will be cleansed of any dissenting voices whilst Corbyn leads what? A party in complete disarray which gets slaughtered every time the Brexit issue gets raised. And Lib-Dems, openly wishing to ignore the result from 2016. Only question for Johnson is how the Brexit Party leaps. If they decide not to stand, or only do so in certain seats with the Tories standing to one side then I suspect it will be a 30-40 seat majority for Johnson. However, if they decide to fully contest it, perhaps a different picture. Now whether Johnson then follows through on his no-deal Brexit, that is another question but I suspect that if he does win, the EU will offer a lot more concessions based on the fact they have an out in claiming it is a new Government now with a specific mandate. I suspect a deal with include keeping us in the single market and customs union for agricultural goods. The EU want to protect Irish farmers and whilst I would love to see that t*** Varadkar destroyed, we need to rise above that sort of short term squabble. But an interesting few months ahead but I suspect September will either make or break Johnson.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| W12 08 Aug 19 12.37pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
The EU want that backstop because they don't want the UK to sign trade deals with other countries. One of the reasons I supported Leave is because I believe that due to globalisation the notion of supranational organisations such as the EU are an anachronism. In the 20th century there was perhaps an argument but now? No. Its time has passed. Also how would you marry up the Common Agricultural Policy with your Nationalist/Globalist narrative? The CAP is perhaps the most nationalist policy out there and lays at the very heart of why the EU not only exists but how it operates. The EU's ambitions extend well beyond it's current "borders" - specifically Africa for example and I'm sure anyone else they can get their hands on with an army at it;s disposal. Things like the CAP would extent into this by definition. It would be stick to beat developing countries into joining the EU along with the threat of being "liberated".
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| Matov 08 Aug 19 12.50pm |
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Originally posted by W12
The EU's ambitions extend well beyond it's current "borders" - specifically Africa for example and I'm sure anyone else they can get their hands on with an army at it;s disposal. Things like the CAP would extent into this by definition. It would be stick to beat developing countries into joining the EU along with the threat of being "liberated".
If we do manage to extradite ourselves cleanly from the EU then I predict it will become even more protectionist than it is at the moment. To many French, Spanish and to a lesser extent, Irish farmers to protect from the slings and arrows of free global trade. And without the UK to sell into, it has to redirect those products inward. The whole point is that they cannot compete as things stand with the rest of the world so all they can do is whack up tariffs and lock even more global trade out of their club.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 08 Aug 19 5.29pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
It is all for open borders for some. That is the key here. And on trade, it is beyond protectionist. Coffee is a great example. You need to ask yourself how a country such as Germany, which does not grow a single coffee bean, can be amongst the biggest exporters of coffee in the world? I am willing to accept all sorts of claims about the EU but this notion that it is somehow promoting globalisation is an absolute fallacy. The EU sells the UK an entire raft of agricultural products that we could buy a lot cheaper elsewhere. And it is desperate to protect that. I think you're confusing globalism and its political ideology with globalisation.
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| Matov 09 Aug 19 1.55pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
I think you're confusing globalism and its political ideology with globalisation.
And the EU is, despite appearances, protectionist in both. Yes, we hear a lot of hot air about migration but when all those Soc.libs are virtue signalling about how barbaric Salvini is with his hard approach to turning away ships full of illegal migrants, none of them are offering to take them in themselves. And with hard-borders being imposed across Europe at an alarming rate. The EU wants to lock out the rest of the world. That is the point of it. It wants to make sure we buy Irish meat or eat French cheese and use Spanish Olive-oil and pay top Euro for it. Ain't none of them queuing up to make the mistake that Merkal did.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Invalid user 2019 09 Aug 19 5.42pm |
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Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister? Boris Johnson - 39% Jeremy Corbyn - 19% Don't know - 37% - YOUGOV 8th Aug
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| Invalid user 2019 09 Aug 19 5.43pm |
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| Stirlingsays 09 Aug 19 5.57pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
More than possible. But trade and migration go hand in hand, if it is the 'open borders' notion you are alluding to. And the EU is, despite appearances, protectionist in both. Yes, we hear a lot of hot air about migration but when all those Soc.libs are virtue signalling about how barbaric Salvini is with his hard approach to turning away ships full of illegal migrants, none of them are offering to take them in themselves. And with hard-borders being imposed across Europe at an alarming rate. The EU wants to lock out the rest of the world. That is the point of it. It wants to make sure we buy Irish meat or eat French cheese and use Spanish Olive-oil and pay top Euro for it. Ain't none of them queuing up to make the mistake that Merkal did. Yep, the EU is a financial disaster waiting to happen and to me at least is an example of politicians drunk with power and idealism and acting like a United States of Europe when it has absolutely no mandate for it and is quite unpopular throughout Europe itself. This country only ever gave consent to a trading community and still rejected rule from Brussels despite huge waves of immigration since the early seventies....which, if they voted on this issue would have voted significantly pro EU. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Aug 2019 6.00pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Matov 10 Aug 19 11.43am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Having studied the issues around the 75 referendum a little more now (and yes, that is rather sad to save anybody the bother) I am reaching the conclusion that even this 'trading community' narrative was a con job. Even back then the 'Common Market' was overwhelmingly a political construct and our UK political elite was conning us about this even back then. I refuse to aim my ire at any European politician for this mess because it is purely a British construct. I even have some sympathy for the Remainer position that claims the EU became an effective scape-Goat for domestic political ills Don't get me wrong, I am more convinced than ever that our future is far better on the out but we need to focus all our ire on our own politicians for leading us this far down the path so that exiting the mess has become seemingly so difficult. But we have to go now. They aint ever going to give us a second chance. This truly is the s*** or bust moment.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| chris123 hove actually 10 Aug 19 12.01pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
Having studied the issues around the 75 referendum a little more now (and yes, that is rather sad to save anybody the bother) I am reaching the conclusion that even this 'trading community' narrative was a con job. Even back then the 'Common Market' was overwhelmingly a political construct and our UK political elite was conning us about this even back then. I refuse to aim my ire at any European politician for this mess because it is purely a British construct. I even have some sympathy for the Remainer position that claims the EU became an effective scape-Goat for domestic political ills Don't get me wrong, I am more convinced than ever that our future is far better on the out but we need to focus all our ire on our own politicians for leading us this far down the path so that exiting the mess has become seemingly so difficult. But we have to go now. They aint ever going to give us a second chance. This truly is the s*** or bust moment. It was ok up until Maastricht in my view.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 10 Aug 19 1.36pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
Having studied the issues around the 75 referendum a little more now (and yes, that is rather sad to save anybody the bother) I am reaching the conclusion that even this 'trading community' narrative was a con job. Even back then the 'Common Market' was overwhelmingly a political construct and our UK political elite was conning us about this even back then. I refuse to aim my ire at any European politician for this mess because it is purely a British construct. I even have some sympathy for the Remainer position that claims the EU became an effective scape-Goat for domestic political ills Don't get me wrong, I am more convinced than ever that our future is far better on the out but we need to focus all our ire on our own politicians for leading us this far down the path so that exiting the mess has become seemingly so difficult. But we have to go now. They aint ever going to give us a second chance. This truly is the s*** or bust moment. Agreed. Years later Heath admitted he lied and knew from the very start that the EEC had political ambitions. This is the crux of the matter European voters were well aware of what the EEC was likely to become whilst British politicians lied through their teeth and told us it was only a free trade bloc. If they had been honest from the start I don't know if we still would have joined but if we had at least it would have been a honest decision. The anger of today dates back to then and they are still singing the same song. The EU will eventually become the United States of Europe and yet Remain politicians are still saying it aint gonna happen and we don't have to agree to it. Do they really think we are that dumb? Why not be honest as I have said many times on this forum when do you ever hear a British politician praise the EU and say yes we want more integration. All you get is it's not that bad and we can change things and, project fear, hardly a ringing endorsement of the EU vision.
One more point |
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| DanH SW2 11 Aug 19 10.25am |
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UKIP strengthening their brand by literally appointing Dick Braine as their new leader.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 11 Aug 19 10.54am |
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Originally posted by DanH
UKIP strengthening their brand by literally appointing Dick Braine as their new leader. Heard him on LBC total number of votes casts for all candidates was around 5000. Bye bye UKIP, If Boris gets us out I think they will be an irrelevancy.
One more point |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 11 Aug 19 11.51am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Heard him on LBC total number of votes casts for all candidates was around 5000. Bye bye UKIP, If Boris gets us out I think they will be an irrelevancy. I suspect it was bye bye UKIP as soon as Farage dumped them. He is so iconic to the Eurosceptics that he is their talisman to an even greater degree than Zaha is to Palace. If that dug their grave then his new party built the mausoleum.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Badger11 Beckenham 12 Aug 19 8.03pm |
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Originally posted by dollardays
Westminster voting intention: CON: 31% (+1) via @OpiniumResearch 10TH Aug
Assuming we have a GE this year, if Farage can just target Labour MPs and Tory Remain MPs that should be enough to get the job done.
One more point |
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| Spiderman Horsham 12 Aug 19 8.44pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Assuming we have a GE this year, if Farage can just target Labour MPs and Tory Remain MPs that should be enough to get the job done. Certainly those Remain MPs whose constituents voted to leave (ie Yvette Cooper, Dominic Grieve)
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