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chris123 hove actually 14 Dec 19 11.13am
Originally posted by Matov Beginning to suspect there might not be a Labour Party, in its current form, left to lead. Over the last 10-15 years the only thing that has held it together is the FPTP system with its core base dependent on its tribal support. Scotland was the first to go and now large swathes of the North. The differences between its traditional voters and the progressive types who now dominate the membership are to wide to bridge. Corbyn did have, at least to the start with, the ability to do both but now? Seriously, who is there? Labour have a catch 22 in how they select their leaders. Meaning that the Progressive types, who dominate the membership will only vote for somebody who simply cannot, and will not, be willing to pander to the wishes of the voters they need to capture back. Len McClusky is the key to this. Needs to insist that the TU's are given the prominent role in choosing who leads the LP. A third of the NEC is union.

chris123

hove actually 14 Dec 19 11.13am

Originally posted by Matov

Beginning to suspect there might not be a Labour Party, in its current form, left to lead.

Over the last 10-15 years the only thing that has held it together is the FPTP system with its core base dependent on its tribal support.

Scotland was the first to go and now large swathes of the North. The differences between its traditional voters and the progressive types who now dominate the membership are to wide to bridge. Corbyn did have, at least to the start with, the ability to do both but now?

Seriously, who is there?

Labour have a catch 22 in how they select their leaders. Meaning that the Progressive types, who dominate the membership will only vote for somebody who simply cannot, and will not, be willing to pander to the wishes of the voters they need to capture back.

Len McClusky is the key to this. Needs to insist that the TU's are given the prominent role in choosing who leads the LP.

A third of the NEC is union.

Matov 14 Dec 19 11.27am
Originally posted by chris123 A third of the NEC is union. But it is the leadership that matters. There are enough Momentum types now in the Labour party to ensure that a Progressive candidate is always nominated and the membership will vote for them. As it stands you get, at best, a Corbyn lite. Who will no doubt proclaim themselves as fully 'Rejoin'. Now I have no issue with anybody who wants us to rejoin the EU once we have left. A perfectly legitimate political aspiration to hold but does it get Labour back the seats it needs? I suspect not. So the Left has to split. I am sure it would co-operate in Parliament but the Labour party in its current format is simply not fit for purpose. Cannot see any future for it. If Labour want to regain the Blythe Valley and hold on to Putney which it needs to do if it is to get back into Government, it lacks the ability to conjure up a leader who can appeal to both. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

14 Dec 19 11.27am

Originally posted by chris123

A third of the NEC is union.

But it is the leadership that matters. There are enough Momentum types now in the Labour party to ensure that a Progressive candidate is always nominated and the membership will vote for them.

As it stands you get, at best, a Corbyn lite. Who will no doubt proclaim themselves as fully 'Rejoin'.

Now I have no issue with anybody who wants us to rejoin the EU once we have left. A perfectly legitimate political aspiration to hold but does it get Labour back the seats it needs?

I suspect not.

So the Left has to split. I am sure it would co-operate in Parliament but the Labour party in its current format is simply not fit for purpose. Cannot see any future for it. If Labour want to regain the Blythe Valley and hold on to Putney which it needs to do if it is to get back into Government, it lacks the ability to conjure up a leader who can appeal to both.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

chris123 hove actually 14 Dec 19 11.37am
Originally posted by Matov But it is the leadership that matters. There are enough Momentum types now in the Labour party to ensure that a Progressive candidate is always nominated and the membership will vote for them. As it stands you get, at best, a Corbyn lite. Who will no doubt proclaim themselves as fully 'Rejoin'. Now I have no issue with anybody who wants us to rejoin the EU once we have left. A perfectly legitimate political aspiration to hold but does it get Labour back the seats it needs? I suspect not. So the Left has to split. I am sure it would co-operate in Parliament but the Labour party in its current format is simply not fit for purpose. Cannot see any future for it. If Labour want to regain the Blythe Valley and hold on to Putney which it needs to do if it is to get back into Government, it lacks the ability to conjure up a leader who can appeal to both. We'd have to join the euro though I expect.

chris123

hove actually 14 Dec 19 11.37am

Originally posted by Matov

But it is the leadership that matters. There are enough Momentum types now in the Labour party to ensure that a Progressive candidate is always nominated and the membership will vote for them.

As it stands you get, at best, a Corbyn lite. Who will no doubt proclaim themselves as fully 'Rejoin'.

Now I have no issue with anybody who wants us to rejoin the EU once we have left. A perfectly legitimate political aspiration to hold but does it get Labour back the seats it needs?

I suspect not.

We'd have to join the euro though I expect.

Rudi Hedman Caterham 14 Dec 19 11.46am
Originally posted by chris123 We'd have to join the euro though I expect. With no renationalising of British industry being the, proverbial only, spanner in the Islington dinner party works. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 14 Dec 19 11.46am

Originally posted by chris123

We'd have to join the euro though I expect.

With no renationalising of British industry being the, proverbial only, spanner in the Islington dinner party works.

COYP

Rudi Hedman Caterham 14 Dec 19 11.51am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger [Link] Make no mistake. This is the sort of thing a lot of people were voting against on Thursday. This country is losing what made it great because of people like this. ‘Mostly people agreed about the need to invest more, some were even willing to pay more tax.’ Just some were even willing to pay more tax then. The threats at the end she’s not going away mean we should be scared. The bit about harsh immigration policy raises an eyebrow. She and they just don’t get it. How dare we have an opinion on immigration when we should keep the door open. Open it wider according to Corbyn. The bit about investing is going to be answered. The cuts have probably been too long imo, but it depends how the economy is stimulated. Edited by Rudi Hedman (14 Dec 2019 11.52am) COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 14 Dec 19 11.51am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

[Link]

Make no mistake. This is the sort of thing a lot of people were voting against on Thursday.

This country is losing what made it great because of people like this.

‘Mostly people agreed about the need to invest more, some were even willing to pay more tax.’

Just some were even willing to pay more tax then.

The threats at the end she’s not going away mean we should be scared. The bit about harsh immigration policy raises an eyebrow. She and they just don’t get it. How dare we have an opinion on immigration when we should keep the door open. Open it wider according to Corbyn. The bit about investing is going to be answered. The cuts have probably been too long imo, but it depends how the economy is stimulated.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (14 Dec 2019 11.52am)

COYP

Matov 14 Dec 19 11.58am
Originally posted by chris123 We'd have to join the euro though I expect. Who knows? To be fair, we have not left yet so I guess it is a bit early to speculate on the specifics but I cannot imagine there not being a Rejoin movement. And quite rightly so. That is a valid ambition. I suspect it will be a few years, possibly decades, before it gains any real traction so what form or conditions our rejoining might take but if memberhship of the Euro is a cast-iron conditional then it is not going to happen. I always said that if Remain had won then the UK should join up with not only the Euro but also become members of the Shengan agreement and so on. One of my objections to the EU is that it is neither one thing or the other. And if we were to remain in the EU then taking charge would have been essential. Always believed there are strong arguments for a federalised Europe and the notion of one single political and economic entity that stretches from the beaches of Portugal to the West to the borders of China (including Russia in it would be immense) in the East, and the Artic circle in the North down to the Greek Islands in the Agean is an incredible vision and with the right leadership and ethos, perhaps the greatest global super-power ever. But nobody has the courage to make that. C'est la vie. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

14 Dec 19 11.58am

Originally posted by chris123

We'd have to join the euro though I expect.

Who knows? To be fair, we have not left yet so I guess it is a bit early to speculate on the specifics but I cannot imagine there not being a Rejoin movement. And quite rightly so. That is a valid ambition.

I suspect it will be a few years, possibly decades, before it gains any real traction so what form or conditions our rejoining might take but if memberhship of the Euro is a cast-iron conditional then it is not going to happen.

I always said that if Remain had won then the UK should join up with not only the Euro but also become members of the Shengan agreement and so on. One of my objections to the EU is that it is neither one thing or the other. And if we were to remain in the EU then taking charge would have been essential.

Always believed there are strong arguments for a federalised Europe and the notion of one single political and economic entity that stretches from the beaches of Portugal to the West to the borders of China (including Russia in it would be immense) in the East, and the Artic circle in the North down to the Greek Islands in the Agean is an incredible vision and with the right leadership and ethos, perhaps the greatest global super-power ever.

But nobody has the courage to make that. C'est la vie.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Henry of Peckham Eton Mess 14 Dec 19 12.02pm
Despite what politicians believe and practice in the Fairyland they call Parliament ... the electorate is not stupid and democracy is not moribund. Power to the People. Denial is not just a river in Egypt

Henry of Peckham

Eton Mess 14 Dec 19 12.02pm

Despite what politicians believe and practice in the Fairyland they call Parliament ... the electorate is not stupid and democracy is not moribund. Power to the People.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt

jeeagles 14 Dec 19 12.16pm
Originally posted by Matov Who knows? To be fair, we have not left yet so I guess it is a bit early to speculate on the specifics but I cannot imagine there not being a Rejoin movement. And quite rightly so. That is a valid ambition. I suspect it will be a few years, possibly decades, before it gains any real traction so what form or conditions our rejoining might take but if memberhship of the Euro is a cast-iron conditional then it is not going to happen. I always said that if Remain had won then the UK should join up with not only the Euro but also become members of the Shengan agreement and so on. One of my objections to the EU is that it is neither one thing or the other. And if we were to remain in the EU then taking charge would have been essential. Always believed there are strong arguments for a federalised Europe and the notion of one single political and economic entity that stretches from the beaches of Portugal to the West to the borders of China (including Russia in it would be immense) in the East, and the Artic circle in the North down to the Greek Islands in the Agean is an incredible vision and with the right leadership and ethos, perhaps the greatest global super-power ever. But nobody has the courage to make that. C'est la vie. Interesting point. Makes you wonder why the EU wants us as a member if we arent willing to fully participate. With that in mind the EU is probably better of with us not a part of it, but having a close relationship with them. However, in all the dealings I've had with the EC or the EU, they are mostly a self serving organisation. They want to make themselves bigger, not because it's the right system of governance for the people that they represent, but because the bigger organisation is, the more power they have, and the more money they get. I suspect ££££ is main reason they wanted us to stay, but that doesn't work if your goals dont match.

jeeagles

14 Dec 19 12.16pm

Originally posted by Matov

But nobody has the courage to make that. C'est la vie.

Interesting point. Makes you wonder why the EU wants us as a member if we arent willing to fully participate.

With that in mind the EU is probably better of with us not a part of it, but having a close relationship with them.

However, in all the dealings I've had with the EC or the EU, they are mostly a self serving organisation. They want to make themselves bigger, not because it's the right system of governance for the people that they represent, but because the bigger organisation is, the more power they have, and the more money they get.

I suspect ££££ is main reason they wanted us to stay, but that doesn't work if your goals dont match.

Uphill Bedford 14 Dec 19 12.34pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays It was the one seat I didn't want to flip. Is anyone sensible left in there? Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Dec 2019 10.20am) I am Tory but was upset that a principled Labour MP lost in Don Valley. She supported Brexit and her constituents and was a beacon of common sense amongst the mad hatters. Labour needs people like her. I've sent her my condolences and hope she resurfaces soon. That was the only down side of the election for me. Highlights: 1. Gina Miller finally getting her comeuppance 2. Nicola Sturgeon proving she is an uncharitable yob (going mental at Swinson's defeat) 3. Alan Johnson berating Jon Lansman 4. The obnoxious Faiza Shaheen shouting over Emma Barnett. If she is the true face of young Labour then they'll never get back. 5. Channel 4's disgracefully pro Labour bias. 6. The PM acknowledging that many Labour votes have lent them their vote. He must remember that. 7. Not having to endure Diane Abbott or Emily Thornbery The hard part now starts and we shall see how sensible the PM is, the buffoonish exterior hopefully hides a compassionate inner. Man and boy Palace since my first game in 1948 sitting on my dad's shoulders

Uphill

Bedford 14 Dec 19 12.34pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

It was the one seat I didn't want to flip.

Is anyone sensible left in there?

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Dec 2019 10.20am)

I am Tory but was upset that a principled Labour MP lost in Don Valley. She supported Brexit and her constituents and was a beacon of common sense amongst the mad hatters. Labour needs people like her.
I've sent her my condolences and hope she resurfaces soon.

That was the only down side of the election for me.

Highlights:

1. Gina Miller finally getting her comeuppance
2. Nicola Sturgeon proving she is an uncharitable yob (going mental at Swinson's defeat)
3. Alan Johnson berating Jon Lansman
4. The obnoxious Faiza Shaheen shouting over Emma Barnett. If she is the true face of young Labour then they'll never get back.
5. Channel 4's disgracefully pro Labour bias.
6. The PM acknowledging that many Labour votes have lent them their vote. He must remember that.
7. Not having to endure Diane Abbott or Emily Thornbery

The hard part now starts and we shall see how sensible the PM is, the buffoonish exterior hopefully hides a compassionate inner.

Man and boy Palace since my first game in 1948 sitting on my dad's shoulders

Badger11 Beckenham 14 Dec 19 1.42pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Watch the left wing media treat Corbyn now. They spent years building him up and defending him. Now they are going to tear him limb from limb. It's already started on election night they were queuing up to throw him under the bus "Our policies are popular it's Brexit and Corbyn". So far none of the potential candidates stand out as leadership material they just espouse the same views as Corbyn. Sill I am not the target audience but i am very much afraid that Labour will listen to it's self and not to the voters. The Momentum leader kept saying our policies are good we need to improve our message and convince the voters. That's like saying it's okay folks the Titanic is safe we got new deckchairs. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 14 Dec 19 1.42pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Watch the left wing media treat Corbyn now.

They spent years building him up and defending him.

Now they are going to tear him limb from limb.

It's already started on election night they were queuing up to throw him under the bus "Our policies are popular it's Brexit and Corbyn".

So far none of the potential candidates stand out as leadership material they just espouse the same views as Corbyn. Sill I am not the target audience but i am very much afraid that Labour will listen to it's self and not to the voters.

The Momentum leader kept saying our policies are good we need to improve our message and convince the voters. That's like saying it's okay folks the Titanic is safe we got new deckchairs.

One more point

Badger11 Beckenham 14 Dec 19 1.42pm
Originally posted by Uphill I am Tory but was upset that a principled Labour MP lost in Don Valley. She supported Brexit and her constituents and was a beacon of common sense amongst the mad hatters. Labour needs people like her. I've sent her my condolences and hope she resurfaces soon. That was the only down side of the election for me. Highlights: 1. Gina Miller finally getting her comeuppance 2. Nicola Sturgeon proving she is an uncharitable yob (going mental at Swinson's defeat) 3. Alan Johnson berating Jon Lansman 4. The obnoxious Faiza Shaheen shouting over Emma Barnett. If she is the true face of young Labour then they'll never get back. 5. Channel 4's disgracefully pro Labour bias. 6. The PM acknowledging that many Labour votes have lent them their vote. He must remember that. 7. Not having to endure Diane Abbott or Emily Thornbery The hard part now starts and we shall see how sensible the PM is, the buffoonish exterior hopefully hides a compassionate inner. Good post. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 14 Dec 19 1.42pm

Originally posted by Uphill

That was the only down side of the election for me.

Highlights:

The hard part now starts and we shall see how sensible the PM is, the buffoonish exterior hopefully hides a compassionate inner.

Good post.

One more point

davenotamonkey 14 Dec 19 3.41pm
Why in the hell didn't Corbyn resign right away? Completely step down? Miliband resigned immediately after losing. Most leaders do. Why not Corbyn? I personally hope it's because he wants to install a Corbynite successor. Someone like Wrong-Daily - that would be comedy. The longer Momentum maintains it's grip on Labour, the longer it remains utterly unelectable. It will be a miracle if Labour get a 20% swing at the next election. Unprecedented. Boris has 2 terms, possibly 3 by the time they claw back Friday's swing. I'm very happy watching Labour eviscerate themselves in the meantime. If it takes 5+ years to purge Labour of these far-left loons, then great. Time for popcorn.

davenotamonkey

14 Dec 19 3.41pm

Why in the hell didn't Corbyn resign right away? Completely step down?

Miliband resigned immediately after losing. Most leaders do. Why not Corbyn?

I personally hope it's because he wants to install a Corbynite successor. Someone like Wrong-Daily - that would be comedy. The longer Momentum maintains it's grip on Labour, the longer it remains utterly unelectable.

It will be a miracle if Labour get a 20% swing at the next election. Unprecedented. Boris has 2 terms, possibly 3 by the time they claw back Friday's swing.

I'm very happy watching Labour eviscerate themselves in the meantime. If it takes 5+ years to purge Labour of these far-left loons, then great. Time for popcorn.

JRW2 Dulwich 14 Dec 19 5.19pm
Originally posted by Uphill I am Tory but was upset that a principled Labour MP lost in Don Valley. She supported Brexit and her constituents and was a beacon of common sense amongst the mad hatters. Labour needs people like her. I've sent her my condolences and hope she resurfaces soon. That was the only down side of the election for me. Highlights: 1. Gina Miller finally getting her comeuppance 2. Nicola Sturgeon proving she is an uncharitable yob (going mental at Swinson's defeat) 3. Alan Johnson berating Jon Lansman 4. The obnoxious Faiza Shaheen shouting over Emma Barnett. If she is the true face of young Labour then they'll never get back. 5. Channel 4's disgracefully pro Labour bias. 6. The PM acknowledging that many Labour votes have lent them their vote. He must remember that. 7. Not having to endure Diane Abbott or Emily Thornbery I unfortunately didn't witness the odious Bercow's apparently crestfallen reaction to the Exit Poll announcement, but I gather it was something to savour. (So no.8 on your list.) Agree, by the way, about the charming Ms Flint.

JRW2

Dulwich 14 Dec 19 5.19pm

Originally posted by Uphill

That was the only down side of the election for me.

Highlights:

I unfortunately didn't witness the odious Bercow's apparently crestfallen reaction to the Exit Poll announcement, but I gather it was something to savour. (So no.8 on your list.)

Agree, by the way, about the charming Ms Flint.

Midlands Eagle 14 Dec 19 5.32pm
Originally posted by davenotamonkey The longer Momentum maintains it's grip on Labour, the longer it remains utterly unelectable. Good. Long live Momentum

Midlands Eagle

14 Dec 19 5.32pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

The longer Momentum maintains it's grip on Labour, the longer it remains utterly unelectable.

Good. Long live Momentum

eagleman13 On The Road To Hell & Alicante 14 Dec 19 5.56pm
Just a thought, the Election is over, finished, get over it. Thread over/finished/locked? This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.

eagleman13

On The Road To Hell & Alicante 14 Dec 19 5.56pm

Just a thought, the Election is over, finished, get over it. Thread over/finished/locked?

This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.

Lyons550 Shirley 14 Dec 19 9.42pm
Has anyone seen anything of eithe Maine or Wisbeach these last few days...i'm begining to get a little concerned...we should maybe get a search party together... The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 14 Dec 19 9.42pm

Has anyone seen anything of eithe Maine or Wisbeach these last few days...i'm begining to get a little concerned...we should maybe get a search party together...

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550 Shirley 14 Dec 19 9.47pm
Gotta love the fact that Momentumn has caused Labour to 'stall'..if not go in to reverse! The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 14 Dec 19 9.47pm

Gotta love the fact that Momentumn has caused Labour to 'stall'..if not go in to reverse!

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

cryrst The garden of England 14 Dec 19 10.30pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 Has anyone seen anything of eithe Maine or Wisbeach these last few days...i'm begining to get a little concerned...we should maybe get a search party together... Wissies on the who to blame thread. Go look and have a laugh.

cryrst

The garden of England 14 Dec 19 10.30pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

Has anyone seen anything of eithe Maine or Wisbeach these last few days...i'm begining to get a little concerned...we should maybe get a search party together...

Wissies on the who to blame thread.
Go look and have a laugh.

Stirlingsays 15 Dec 19 5.04am
There's a growing movement on the right to campaign for Diane Abbott for next Labour leader. A little cruel perhaps but amusing all the same. [Tweet Link] 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

15 Dec 19 5.04am

There's a growing movement on the right to campaign for Diane Abbott for next Labour leader.

A little cruel perhaps but amusing all the same.

[Tweet Link]

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Badger11 Beckenham 15 Dec 19 9.33am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays There's a growing movement on the right to campaign for Diane Abbott for next Labour leader. A little cruel perhaps but amusing all the same. [Tweet Link] John McDonald and Diane discussing finance. For the younger viewers this is Abbott and Costello. [Link] One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 15 Dec 19 9.33am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There's a growing movement on the right to campaign for Diane Abbott for next Labour leader.

A little cruel perhaps but amusing all the same.

[Tweet Link]

John McDonald and Diane discussing finance. For the younger viewers this is Abbott and Costello.

[Link]

One more point

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