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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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johnfirewall 23 Feb 16 6.16pm
I struggled to understand the left's love for Maggie's cheap foreign labour club who bailed out eachother's banks but then saw the below which points out it's mainly about worker's rights. None of which I'm entitled to or benefit me. [Link] The trade aspect is bull. Conveniently highlighted by the Scotch Beef campaign funded by the EU £12bn to advertise our own produce to ourselves. [Link] Edited by johnfirewall (23 Feb 2016 6.19pm)

johnfirewall

23 Feb 16 6.16pm

I struggled to understand the left's love for Maggie's cheap foreign labour club who bailed out eachother's banks but then saw the below which points out it's mainly about worker's rights. None of which I'm entitled to or benefit me.

[Link]

The trade aspect is bull. Conveniently highlighted by the Scotch Beef campaign funded by the EU

£12bn to advertise our own produce to ourselves.

[Link]

Edited by johnfirewall (23 Feb 2016 6.19pm)

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Feb 16 6.35pm
Originally posted by johnfirewall I struggled to understand the left's love for Maggie's cheap foreign labour club who bailed out eachother's banks but then saw the below which points out it's mainly about worker's rights. None of which I'm entitled to or benefit me. [Link] The trade aspect is bull. Conveniently highlighted by the Scotch Beef campaign funded by the EU £12bn to advertise our own produce to ourselves. [Link] Edited by johnfirewall (23 Feb 2016 6.19pm) There are differing opinions on the left about the EU. Bob Crow (RIP) was anti eu because it doesn't go far enough to protect workers rights.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 23 Feb 16 6.35pm

Originally posted by johnfirewall

[Link]

The trade aspect is bull. Conveniently highlighted by the Scotch Beef campaign funded by the EU

£12bn to advertise our own produce to ourselves.

[Link]

Edited by johnfirewall (23 Feb 2016 6.19pm)

There are differing opinions on the left about the EU.

Bob Crow (RIP) was anti eu because it doesn't go far enough to protect workers rights.

johnfirewall 23 Feb 16 6.36pm
Originally posted by nickgusset There are differing opinions on the left about the EU. Bob Crow (RIP) was anti eu because it doesn't go far enough to protect workers rights. Because they still had to work?

johnfirewall

23 Feb 16 6.36pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

There are differing opinions on the left about the EU.

Bob Crow (RIP) was anti eu because it doesn't go far enough to protect workers rights.

Because they still had to work?

elgrande bedford 23 Feb 16 9.36pm
Originally posted by johnfirewall Because they still had to work? always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

elgrande

bedford 23 Feb 16 9.36pm

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Because they still had to work?

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

Rudi Hedman Caterham 23 Feb 16 10.36pm
Kamal Ahmed: For politicians supporting Britain remaining in the European Union, the blessing of business leaders is seen as a positive step. And the list signing the pro-European letter - at least in part orchestrated by Number 10 - are certainly a hefty bunch. But, a few health warnings. First, many of the people who have signed have long been public advocates of Britain remaining in the EU - from Sir Roger Carr of BAE, to Iain Conn of Centrica, Dame Carolyn McCall of easyJet and Bob Dudley of BP. Second, some of the business leaders named say that although Britain would be better off economically in the EU, the UK is still a significant market and investment levels would remain high whatever the outcome of the referendum. Paul Polman, the chief executive of Unilever and one of signatories, told me that directly when I interviewed him a few weeks ago. The UK is the world's fifth largest economy with a 60-million strong population. As such, it matters. Third, many smaller businesses are much more sceptical about the advantages or otherwise of the UK's membership of the EU. A large number do not export to the rest of Europe and their only experience of Brussels is directives on employment rights which some say are over-burdensome. The British Chambers of Commerce represents many such businesses - and it has announced it will not be campaigning for either side in the referendum as "very real divisions" exist in the business community. 2 of the signatures are of 2 Goldman Sachs execs. You know, the Wall Street bank that hid Greek debts when they joined the EU. If we exit they're concerned they won't be able to do business as usual across Europe. They may go to Frankfurt or Paris. Paris with Socialist Hollande's heavy taxes. Oh and they made a large donation to the in campaign. London is where everyone wants to come to. Has everyone forgotten the property price trends here? COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 23 Feb 16 10.36pm

Kamal Ahmed:

For politicians supporting Britain remaining in the European Union, the blessing of business leaders is seen as a positive step.
And the list signing the pro-European letter - at least in part orchestrated by Number 10 - are certainly a hefty bunch.
But, a few health warnings.
First, many of the people who have signed have long been public advocates of Britain remaining in the EU - from Sir Roger Carr of BAE, to Iain Conn of Centrica, Dame Carolyn McCall of easyJet and Bob Dudley of BP.

Second, some of the business leaders named say that although Britain would be better off economically in the EU, the UK is still a significant market and investment levels would remain high whatever the outcome of the referendum.

Paul Polman, the chief executive of Unilever and one of signatories, told me that directly when I interviewed him a few weeks ago.
The UK is the world's fifth largest economy with a 60-million strong population.
As such, it matters.

Third, many smaller businesses are much more sceptical about the advantages or otherwise of the UK's membership of the EU.
A large number do not export to the rest of Europe and their only experience of Brussels is directives on employment rights which some say are over-burdensome.

The British Chambers of Commerce represents many such businesses - and it has announced it will not be campaigning for either side in the referendum as "very real divisions" exist in the business community.

2 of the signatures are of 2 Goldman Sachs execs. You know, the Wall Street bank that hid Greek debts when they joined the EU. If we exit they're concerned they won't be able to do business as usual across Europe. They may go to Frankfurt or Paris. Paris with Socialist Hollande's heavy taxes. Oh and they made a large donation to the in campaign.

London is where everyone wants to come to. Has everyone forgotten the property price trends here?

COYP

Sportyteacher London 24 Feb 16 7.13am
BBC to stage EU Referendum debate at...ahem...Wembley Arena: [Link] Ticket touts rumoured not to be exhilarated at the prospect.

Sportyteacher

London 24 Feb 16 7.13am

BBC to stage EU Referendum debate at...ahem...Wembley Arena:

[Link]

Ticket touts rumoured not to be exhilarated at the prospect.

the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 24 Feb 16 9.41am
The problem for me is the question "what would Brexit look like". The leave campaign have a lot of work to do to explain exactly what would come after. Right now there seems to be no coherent policy. Without that, it is doomed to failure for the same reasons as the Scottish referendum, i.e. "the great unknown". The leave campaign need to get aligned in deciding what route they propose Britain to follow after Brexit. An agreement like Norway, or like Switzerland, or neither? But people need to know that before committing to putting a tick in the "leave" box. I myself am in the "remain" camp, until these questions are answered. Brexit could be successful or a complete disaster and the devil is in the detail.

the_mcanuff_stuff

Caterham 24 Feb 16 9.41am

The problem for me is the question "what would Brexit look like".

The leave campaign have a lot of work to do to explain exactly what would come after. Right now there seems to be no coherent policy.

Without that, it is doomed to failure for the same reasons as the Scottish referendum, i.e. "the great unknown".

The leave campaign need to get aligned in deciding what route they propose Britain to follow after Brexit. An agreement like Norway, or like Switzerland, or neither? But people need to know that before committing to putting a tick in the "leave" box.

I myself am in the "remain" camp, until these questions are answered. Brexit could be successful or a complete disaster and the devil is in the detail.

chris123 hove actually 24 Feb 16 10.14am
Originally posted by the_mcanuff_stuff The problem for me is the question "what would Brexit look like". The leave campaign have a lot of work to do to explain exactly what would come after. Right now there seems to be no coherent policy. Without that, it is doomed to failure for the same reasons as the Scottish referendum, i.e. "the great unknown". The leave campaign need to get aligned in deciding what route they propose Britain to follow after Brexit. An agreement like Norway, or like Switzerland, or neither? But people need to know that before committing to putting a tick in the "leave" box. I myself am in the "remain" camp, until these questions are answered. Brexit could be successful or a complete disaster and the devil is in the detail. Like this - at present split between Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxembourg and Frankfurt we have the European Parliament, the European Council, the Council of the European Union, the Commission, the Court of Justice, the Court of Auditors and the Central Bank. They all to a greater or lesser extent diminish from our own domestic governance. By exiting we can repatriate our law making to our own legislature and not be exposed to any law making that is not in our own domestic interest. Edited by chris123 (24 Feb 2016 10.15am)

chris123

hove actually 24 Feb 16 10.14am

Originally posted by the_mcanuff_stuff

The problem for me is the question "what would Brexit look like".

The leave campaign have a lot of work to do to explain exactly what would come after. Right now there seems to be no coherent policy.

Without that, it is doomed to failure for the same reasons as the Scottish referendum, i.e. "the great unknown".

I myself am in the "remain" camp, until these questions are answered. Brexit could be successful or a complete disaster and the devil is in the detail.

Like this - at present split between Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxembourg and Frankfurt we have the European Parliament, the European Council, the Council of the European Union, the Commission, the Court of Justice, the Court of Auditors and the Central Bank.

They all to a greater or lesser extent diminish from our own domestic governance. By exiting we can repatriate our law making to our own legislature and not be exposed to any law making that is not in our own domestic interest.

Edited by chris123 (24 Feb 2016 10.15am)

Rudi Hedman Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.40am
1,000 new jobs announced after the referendum date announced. Aston Martin are going to open 2 new car assembly plants in Wales. 750 jobs in 1 and 250 in the other to build the new Aston DBX crossover 4 seater. Although it looks quite horrible IMO on the inside they'll probably sell loads of these being 4 seater. They had the opportunity to set up anywhere in the world and chose Wales (Britain for the purposes of this subject) because of the skilled workforce and the timing issues they face. All they would comment on the EU was that they benefit from free trade and economic stability. Aston's EU exports are just 20% but it's still enough to tip a company into trouble if there was danger to that 20%, same as EU country exports to us at amount to 10% of their total. The only question is, is there anyone in parliament with the negotiating skills and not a gutless acceptance of the status quo. Edited by Rudi Hedman (24 Feb 2016 10.42am) COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.40am

1,000 new jobs announced after the referendum date announced.

Aston Martin are going to open 2 new car assembly plants in Wales. 750 jobs in 1 and 250 in the other to build the new Aston DBX crossover 4 seater. Although it looks quite horrible IMO on the inside they'll probably sell loads of these being 4 seater.

They had the opportunity to set up anywhere in the world and chose Wales (Britain for the purposes of this subject) because of the skilled workforce and the timing issues they face. All they would comment on the EU was that they benefit from free trade and economic stability.

Aston's EU exports are just 20% but it's still enough to tip a company into trouble if there was danger to that 20%, same as EU country exports to us at amount to 10% of their total.

The only question is, is there anyone in parliament with the negotiating skills and not a gutless acceptance of the status quo.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (24 Feb 2016 10.42am)

COYP

jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Feb 16 10.50am
Originally posted by chris123 Like this - at present split between Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxembourg and Frankfurt we have the European Parliament, the European Council, the Council of the European Union, the Commission, the Court of Justice, the Court of Auditors and the Central Bank. They all to a greater or lesser extent diminish from our own domestic governance. By exiting we can repatriate our law making to our own legislature and not be exposed to any law making that is not in our own domestic interest. Edited by chris123 (24 Feb 2016 10.15am) Problem is that domestic governance should always be limited, and having an arbitrator body that's independent usually facilitates this better than a body that is subject to the influence of the governing state. Its also important to remember that all of these bodies also contain democratically elected or individuals appointed by member states to represent their interests in these matters. Granted they may not represent the government, but the MEPs are elected in arguably a far more democratic method than the UK has for government. The perception presented that some how the EU steals British Sovereignty is something of a strawman argument, given that we are democratically represented within those organisations. Even the European Court, where we have exactly the same representation as every other member. One of the problems of the sovereignty arguments is that essentially the out campaign really want to be the dominant power in the EU and make it do what they want, rather than a partner. Which is of course a statement that worries me somewhat, given its anti-democratic. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 24 Feb 16 10.50am

Originally posted by chris123

Edited by chris123 (24 Feb 2016 10.15am)

Problem is that domestic governance should always be limited, and having an arbitrator body that's independent usually facilitates this better than a body that is subject to the influence of the governing state.

The perception presented that some how the EU steals British Sovereignty is something of a strawman argument, given that we are democratically represented within those organisations. Even the European Court, where we have exactly the same representation as every other member.

One of the problems of the sovereignty arguments is that essentially the out campaign really want to be the dominant power in the EU and make it do what they want, rather than a partner. Which is of course a statement that worries me somewhat, given its anti-democratic.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Rudi Hedman Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.52am
In danger of stating the obvious here but Western European countries export quality goods and services to us (apart from Peugeot that look good but break after 3 years or Renaults). What do Eastern European countries export to Britain? People? Cheap Vodka? Tinned Plum Tomatoes? Where does the 10% of total EU exports to the UK come from? And herein lies the areas to bargain/problem of Eastern European countries opposing the exit side's wishes and where it all started to become more than what people thought it was originally going to be. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.52am

In danger of stating the obvious here but Western European countries export quality goods and services to us (apart from Peugeot that look good but break after 3 years or Renaults).

What do Eastern European countries export to Britain? People? Cheap Vodka? Tinned Plum Tomatoes?

Where does the 10% of total EU exports to the UK come from?

And herein lies the areas to bargain/problem of Eastern European countries opposing the exit side's wishes and where it all started to become more than what people thought it was originally going to be.

COYP

the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.58am
Tackling the important points: [Link]

the_mcanuff_stuff

Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.58am

Tackling the important points:

[Link]

chris123 hove actually 24 Feb 16 10.58am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Problem is that domestic governance should always be limited, and having an arbitrator body that's independent usually facilitates this better than a body that is subject to the influence of the governing state. Its also important to remember that all of these bodies also contain democratically elected or individuals appointed by member states to represent their interests in these matters. Granted they may not represent the government, but the MEPs are elected in arguably a far more democratic method than the UK has for government. The perception presented that some how the EU steals British Sovereignty is something of a strawman argument, given that we are democratically represented within those organisations. Even the European Court, where we have exactly the same representation as every other member. One of the problems of the sovereignty arguments is that essentially the out campaign really want to be the dominant power in the EU and make it do what they want, rather than a partner. Which is of course a statement that worries me somewhat, given its anti-democratic. Er democratically elected individuals who quite reasonably will act in their own interests. It's the environment that's wrong and having representation within a European body is not the same as repatriating that decision making.

chris123

hove actually 24 Feb 16 10.58am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Er democratically elected individuals who quite reasonably will act in their own interests. It's the environment that's wrong and having representation within a European body is not the same as repatriating that decision making.

Rudi Hedman Caterham 24 Feb 16 11.00am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Problem is that domestic governance should always be limited, and having an arbitrator body that's independent usually facilitates this better than a body that is subject to the influence of the governing state. Its also important to remember that all of these bodies also contain democratically elected or individuals appointed by member states to represent their interests in these matters. Granted they may not represent the government, but the MEPs are elected in arguably a far more democratic method than the UK has for government. The perception presented that some how the EU steals British Sovereignty is something of a strawman argument, given that we are democratically represented within those organisations. Even the European Court, where we have exactly the same representation as every other member. One of the problems of the sovereignty arguments is that essentially the out campaign really want to be the dominant power in the EU and make it do what they want, rather than a partner. Which is of course a statement that worries me somewhat, given its anti-democratic. Sorry but what is our proportion of MEP's in the EU? 4%? Make it do what we want? What like decide how we run our own country from within and negotiate fair trading deals where we are not taxed on exports or imports which incidentally we and they know can happen vice versa. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 24 Feb 16 11.00am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its also important to remember that all of these bodies also contain democratically elected or individuals appointed by member states to represent their interests in these matters. Granted they may not represent the government, but the MEPs are elected in arguably a far more democratic method than the UK has for government.

The perception presented that some how the EU steals British Sovereignty is something of a strawman argument, given that we are democratically represented within those organisations. Even the European Court, where we have exactly the same representation as every other member.

Sorry but what is our proportion of MEP's in the EU? 4%?

Make it do what we want? What like decide how we run our own country from within and negotiate fair trading deals where we are not taxed on exports or imports which incidentally we and they know can happen vice versa.

COYP

since1953 Maidenhead 24 Feb 16 11.02am
The truth is that the issue is on a knife edge.Some are happy to move towards a federal Europe, whereas others believe that we did not sign up to this and that we have been drawn into federalism inch by inch.Most agree that the Common Market aspect of the EU is welcomed, but this referendum is a line drawn in the sand where we take stock of where we are and where we go from here. At the moment I am tending towards the "Out " camp, but I will be listening to the arguments with an open mind and my allegiance could change.

since1953

Maidenhead 24 Feb 16 11.02am

The truth is that the issue is on a knife edge.Some are happy to move towards a federal Europe, whereas others believe that we did not sign up to this and that we have been drawn into federalism inch by inch.Most agree that the Common Market aspect of the EU is welcomed, but this referendum is a line drawn in the sand where we take stock of where we are and where we go from here.
At the moment I am tending towards the "Out " camp, but I will be listening to the arguments with an open mind and my allegiance could change.

Kermit8 Hevon 24 Feb 16 11.11am
Well-known Trotskyite and commie Brendan O'Neill argues the case for leaving using, confusingly, 'Love democracy?' as his persuasive headline. [Link] Can't remember a time when the more extreme left got into bed with the more extreme right about anything since Adolf and Josef had a pre-war cuppa. This has just re-enforced my 'in'. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 24 Feb 16 11.11am

Well-known Trotskyite and commie Brendan O'Neill argues the case for leaving using, confusingly, 'Love democracy?' as his persuasive headline.

[Link]

Can't remember a time when the more extreme left got into bed with the more extreme right about anything since Adolf and Josef had a pre-war cuppa.

This has just re-enforced my 'in'.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 24 Feb 16 11.11am
Originally posted by chris123 Like this - at present split between Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxembourg and Frankfurt we have the European Parliament, the European Council, the Council of the European Union, the Commission, the Court of Justice, the Court of Auditors and the Central Bank. They all to a greater or lesser extent diminish from our own domestic governance. By exiting we can repatriate our law making to our own legislature and not be exposed to any law making that is not in our own domestic interest. Edited by chris123 (24 Feb 2016 10.15am) I'm well aware of the current set up. What I want to know is, will we seek to remain as part of the EEA (for example) or completely do away with it. Like I said in my original post I want to know what Brexit will look like in practice, should we decide to leave. What is being proposed? Is the alternative better? If it is, we need to know what that looks like. And right now we don't because the "leave" campaign seems undecided. If they got in line and said "we will leave the EU and seek membership of the EEA", or even if not, at least it would be a clear indication what really is going to happen on "Brexit" Right now it is unclear and much too wishy-washy. I will predict right here and now, if there is no coherent plan put out by the "leave" campaign for the event of Brexit, it will fail. I'm 100% certain of that. People can not be expected to back something if they don't know what it entails. It is far too an important issue to vote on emotionally and say "let's leave and see what happens". That will never in a month of Sundays get the support that is required to win the referendum.

the_mcanuff_stuff

Caterham 24 Feb 16 11.11am

Originally posted by chris123

Edited by chris123 (24 Feb 2016 10.15am)

I'm well aware of the current set up. What I want to know is, will we seek to remain as part of the EEA (for example) or completely do away with it. Like I said in my original post I want to know what Brexit will look like in practice, should we decide to leave. What is being proposed? Is the alternative better? If it is, we need to know what that looks like. And right now we don't because the "leave" campaign seems undecided.

If they got in line and said "we will leave the EU and seek membership of the EEA", or even if not, at least it would be a clear indication what really is going to happen on "Brexit" Right now it is unclear and much too wishy-washy.

I will predict right here and now, if there is no coherent plan put out by the "leave" campaign for the event of Brexit, it will fail. I'm 100% certain of that. People can not be expected to back something if they don't know what it entails. It is far too an important issue to vote on emotionally and say "let's leave and see what happens". That will never in a month of Sundays get the support that is required to win the referendum.

dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 24 Feb 16 11.21am
We arethe strongest economy in the Eurozone, not because we are in it, but because we hold it all togther, if we go Germany and France will be left holding the baby, and we all know how well they get along. Lets just pack it in, and consign the whole Europen ideaoligical utopian fantasy to the history books, it was a good idea (on paper), which is where it should have stayed. I have heard a sneaky one that Prauge is serioulsy rethinking it's inclusion in the whole fiasco. if this vote went to the public today, we'd be out of Europe as soon as they could count the votes. Edited by dannyh (24 Feb 2016 11.23am) "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 24 Feb 16 11.21am

We arethe strongest economy in the Eurozone, not because we are in it, but because we hold it all togther, if we go Germany and France will be left holding the baby, and we all know how well they get along.

Lets just pack it in, and consign the whole Europen ideaoligical utopian fantasy to the history books, it was a good idea (on paper), which is where it should have stayed.

I have heard a sneaky one that Prauge is serioulsy rethinking it's inclusion in the whole fiasco. if this vote went to the public today, we'd be out of Europe as soon as they could count the votes.

Edited by dannyh (24 Feb 2016 11.23am)

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 24 Feb 16 11.26am
Originally posted by Kermit8 Well-known Trotskyite and commie Brendan O'Neill argues the case for leaving using, confusingly, 'Love democracy?' as his persuasive headline. [Link] Can't remember a time when the more extreme left got into bed with the more extreme right about anything since Adolf and Josef had a pre-war cuppa. This has just re-enforced my 'in'. But didn't you go on and on about the land of the haggis becoming independant "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 24 Feb 16 11.26am

Originally posted by Kermit8

Well-known Trotskyite and commie Brendan O'Neill argues the case for leaving using, confusingly, 'Love democracy?' as his persuasive headline.

[Link]

Can't remember a time when the more extreme left got into bed with the more extreme right about anything since Adolf and Josef had a pre-war cuppa.

This has just re-enforced my 'in'.

But didn't you go on and on about the land of the haggis becoming independant

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

Kermit8 Hevon 24 Feb 16 11.29am
Originally posted by dannyh But didn't you go on and on about the land of the haggis becoming independant No. That was Sean Connery. I wasn't really bothered either way tbh. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 24 Feb 16 11.29am

Originally posted by dannyh

But didn't you go on and on about the land of the haggis becoming independant

No. That was Sean Connery. I wasn't really bothered either way tbh.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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