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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jul 17 8.27pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston What if that white man was a Russian, or French, or Norwegian, or American. Did you identify with the German bomber pilots in "Battle of Britain"? They're white; very much so in fact. Did you object to when the Craig-Bond movies took a white character - Felix Leiter - that had been written as white and always played by a white man - and turned him black? Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 8.10pm) One does not really think too much about peripheral characters in films so German pilots really aren't very relevant to this conversation. Felix Leiter has been played by 10 different actors, 2 have been Black. I thought Jeffrey Wright was a good Leiter and I was disappointed that he did not feature in the recent films. David Hedison and Jack Lord are the ones that people generally remember. His character is a generally a minor supporting role and his back story is not well established. Therefore his ethnicity is not particularly significant. It is, however, an opportunity to have a black actor in the film to appeal to that demographic. You know, in the way you call 'racist'. Me thinks you might not live in the real world.

Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jul 17 8.27pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

What if that white man was a Russian, or French, or Norwegian, or American. Did you identify with the German bomber pilots in "Battle of Britain"? They're white; very much so in fact.

Did you object to when the Craig-Bond movies took a white character - Felix Leiter - that had been written as white and always played by a white man - and turned him black?

Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 8.10pm)

One does not really think too much about peripheral characters in films so German pilots really aren't very relevant to this conversation.
Felix Leiter has been played by 10 different actors, 2 have been Black. I thought Jeffrey Wright was a good Leiter and I was disappointed that he did not feature in the recent films. David Hedison and Jack Lord are the ones that people generally remember. His character is a generally a minor supporting role and his back story is not well established. Therefore his ethnicity is not particularly significant. It is, however, an opportunity to have a black actor in the film to appeal to that demographic. You know, in the way you call 'racist'.

Me thinks you might not live in the real world.

Stirlingsays 18 Jul 17 8.29pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston "I prefer white people to black people." That's a statement of preference; is it racist? It's actually a good philosophical question. If you took that statement as actually that then yes, I'd say it's racist to an extent....But isn't that your summary? Personally I didn't take that as what he was saying. Wasn't he saying that he felt that Bond being white represented him more....I don't see how that's different to what a lot of black people call for. Personally I don't see that as being 'racist' from either of them. I think we all know racism when we see it. It's in how you treat people. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

18 Jul 17 8.29pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

"I prefer white people to black people."

That's a statement of preference; is it racist?

It's actually a good philosophical question.

If you took that statement as actually that then yes, I'd say it's racist to an extent....But isn't that your summary? Personally I didn't take that as what he was saying.

Wasn't he saying that he felt that Bond being white represented him more....I don't see how that's different to what a lot of black people call for.

Personally I don't see that as being 'racist' from either of them. I think we all know racism when we see it. It's in how you treat people.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jul 17 8.29pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston I moved to a whole nother country. Where are you? It ain't where you live, it is where your mind is at.

Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jul 17 8.29pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

I moved to a whole nother country. Where are you?

It ain't where you live, it is where your mind is at.

Stirlingsays 18 Jul 17 8.33pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston What if that white man was a Russian, or French, or Norwegian, or American. Did you identify with the German bomber pilots in "Battle of Britain"? They're white; very much so in fact. Did you object to when the Craig-Bond movies took a white character - Felix Leiter - that had been written as white and always played by a white man - and turned him black? Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 8.10pm) Isn't it more about representing him....So being white and British/English is more important than just being white. Being white and German isn't the same. I suppose it's all about degrees of separation from the fiction or reality. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

18 Jul 17 8.33pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

What if that white man was a Russian, or French, or Norwegian, or American. Did you identify with the German bomber pilots in "Battle of Britain"? They're white; very much so in fact.

Did you object to when the Craig-Bond movies took a white character - Felix Leiter - that had been written as white and always played by a white man - and turned him black?

Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 8.10pm)

Isn't it more about representing him....So being white and British/English is more important than just being white.

Being white and German isn't the same.

I suppose it's all about degrees of separation from the fiction or reality.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jul 17 8.36pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston "I prefer white people to black people." That's a statement of preference; is it racist? So when Black people call for more roles for Black actors or more Black role models on TV, that is racist is it? By your reckoning, it must be or else they would be happy to see only White faces.

Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jul 17 8.36pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

"I prefer white people to black people."

That's a statement of preference; is it racist?

So when Black people call for more roles for Black actors or more Black role models on TV, that is racist is it?

By your reckoning, it must be or else they would be happy to see only White faces.

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 8.37pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Yeah, I'd say that is all valid. Art, for art's sake, doesn't have to hold true to boundaries.....I suppose if I see something as tokenism or as just being done to push ideologies it pisses me off a bit....But art as a pure art form of expression shouldn't be told what it can and can't do....Yeah I'd agree with that. Still, it's also perfectly valid to criticise it from pretty much most perspectives as I suppose that is the core of what art is....viewponts and perspectives. I like the fantasy of Bond as this British strong representative of anglo saxonism....But I know that it is what it is....just a fiction designed to entertain a demographic and pass leisure time for them....It won't be to everyone's tastes and I don't think any art form can be...Or really should try in a perfect world....Though we know that commercial art forms are obviously under massive pressures to make their investments back. The skin colour is more an aesthetic.....more important to some more than others but I'm fine with however people feel about it. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 8.37pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yeah, I'd say that is all valid.

Art, for art's sake, doesn't have to hold true to boundaries.....I suppose if I see something as tokenism or as just being done to push ideologies it pisses me off a bit....But art as a pure art form of expression shouldn't be told what it can and can't do....Yeah I'd agree with that.

Still, it's also perfectly valid to criticise it from pretty much most perspectives as I suppose that is the core of what art is....viewponts and perspectives.

I like the fantasy of Bond as this British strong representative of anglo saxonism....But I know that it is what it is....just a fiction designed to entertain a demographic and pass leisure time for them....It won't be to everyone's tastes and I don't think any art form can be...Or really should try in a perfect world....Though we know that commercial art forms are obviously under massive pressures to make their investments back.

The skin colour is more an aesthetic.....more important to some more than others but I'm fine with however people feel about it.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Stirlingsays 18 Jul 17 8.41pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston Such statements aren't racist; the motivation driving them may be, however. If you want Shaft to be white because you think that such a depiction would be an interesting exploration of race in our culture, then that's not racist. If you want Shaft to be white because you're white, that's racist. No, that was a typo....Shaft being 'white'"...what the feck am I thinking. I've corrected it. A white 'shaft' would make a good comedy possibility....reversing a lot of these things has that context.....Also playing it straight for the demographics who want their stuff is fine too. If I think there's an agenda behind it I have my moan...I've been moaning about the writers and producers of Dr Who pretty much since they brought it back. Still, everything has its place. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

18 Jul 17 8.41pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

Such statements aren't racist; the motivation driving them may be, however.

If you want Shaft to be white because you think that such a depiction would be an interesting exploration of race in our culture, then that's not racist. If you want Shaft to be white because you're white, that's racist.

No, that was a typo....Shaft being 'white'"...what the feck am I thinking.

I've corrected it.

A white 'shaft' would make a good comedy possibility....reversing a lot of these things has that context.....Also playing it straight for the demographics who want their stuff is fine too.

If I think there's an agenda behind it I have my moan...I've been moaning about the writers and producers of Dr Who pretty much since they brought it back.

Still, everything has its place.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays 18 Jul 17 8.42pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." Now that was a wonderful human being. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

18 Jul 17 8.42pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Now that was a wonderful human being.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jul 17 8.42pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." What has that got to do with James Bond or Shaft?

Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jul 17 8.42pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

What has that got to do with James Bond or Shaft?

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 8.44pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Isn't it more about representing him....So being white and British/English is more important than just being white. Being white and German isn't the same. I suppose it's all about degrees of separation from the fiction or reality. In 1950s Britain, a person with Bond's job would be a white man with 100% certainty. In 21st century Britain, that job could be held by someone of almost any creed, colour or gender while still being British. This is the Bond-then vs. Bond-now distinction I'm trying to make; and I think you and I are on the same page here. If they made the next Bond as a period piece, Bond would be a white man if they wanted to be historically accurate. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 8.44pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Isn't it more about representing him....So being white and British/English is more important than just being white.

Being white and German isn't the same.

I suppose it's all about degrees of separation from the fiction or reality.

In 1950s Britain, a person with Bond's job would be a white man with 100% certainty. In 21st century Britain, that job could be held by someone of almost any creed, colour or gender while still being British.

This is the Bond-then vs. Bond-now distinction I'm trying to make; and I think you and I are on the same page here. If they made the next Bond as a period piece, Bond would be a white man if they wanted to be historically accurate.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jul 17 8.50pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston In 1950s Britain, a person with Bond's job would be a white man with 100% certainty. In 21st century Britain, that job could be held by someone of almost any creed, colour or gender while still being British. This is the Bond-then vs. Bond-now distinction I'm trying to make; and I think you and I are on the same page here. If they made the next Bond as a period piece, Bond would be a white man if they wanted to be historically accurate. So you think that because 4% of the British population are Black, James Bond should be Black? I'd say that means that 4 out of every 100 Bonds should be Black by your reckoning.

Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jul 17 8.50pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

So you think that because 4% of the British population are Black, James Bond should be Black?
I'd say that means that 4 out of every 100 Bonds should be Black by your reckoning.

Stirlingsays 18 Jul 17 8.55pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston In 1950s Britain, a person with Bond's job would be a white man with 100% certainty. In 21st century Britain, that job could be held by someone of almost any creed, colour or gender while still being British. This is the Bond-then vs. Bond-now distinction I'm trying to make; and I think you and I are on the same page here. If they made the next Bond as a period piece, Bond would be a white man if they wanted to be historically accurate. True.....though I'm not sure I want Bond to become modern in attitudes. I think they have been redefining Bond since Moore took over....He's already become this ethical person with a conscience...even in the newer books to an extent. We know it's about making the money back far more than any real attachment to authenticity. He represents masculinity to a certain extent....I like that....Not enough of that going about commercially anymore in my eyes. When I grew up we had Arnie wall to wall....'Total Recall'. 'What have you been feeding this nowadays?' 'Blondes'. ....I want more cheesy lines again! The PC stuff is so boring. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jul 2017 8.56pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

18 Jul 17 8.55pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

True.....though I'm not sure I want Bond to become modern in attitudes.

I think they have been redefining Bond since Moore took over....He's already become this ethical person with a conscience...even in the newer books to an extent. We know it's about making the money back far more than any real attachment to authenticity.

He represents masculinity to a certain extent....I like that....Not enough of that going about commercially anymore in my eyes.

When I grew up we had Arnie wall to wall....'Total Recall'.

'What have you been feeding this nowadays?'
'Blondes'.

....I want more cheesy lines again!

The PC stuff is so boring.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jul 2017 8.56pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 18 Jul 17 8.57pm
Me daughter (who is ten) said her mates at school were excited by a female doctor who.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 18 Jul 17 8.57pm

Me daughter (who is ten) said her mates at school were excited by a female doctor who.

Stirlingsays 18 Jul 17 9.03pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Me daughter (who is ten) said her mates at school were excited by a female doctor who. Well of course....little girls like to play with boy toys.....and to an extent why not. I doubt that hardly any of them will be running into burning buildings when they grow up though. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

18 Jul 17 9.03pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Me daughter (who is ten) said her mates at school were excited by a female doctor who.

Well of course....little girls like to play with boy toys.....and to an extent why not.

I doubt that hardly any of them will be running into burning buildings when they grow up though.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 9.07pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger One does not really think too much about peripheral characters in films so German pilots really aren't very relevant to this conversation. Felix Leiter has been played by 10 different actors, 2 have been Black. I thought Jeffrey Wright was a good Leiter and I was disappointed that he did not feature in the recent films. David Hedison and Jack Lord are the ones that people generally remember. His character is a generally a minor supporting role and his back story is not well established. Therefore his ethnicity is not particularly significant. It is, however, an opportunity to have a black actor in the film to appeal to that demographic. You know, in the way you call 'racist'. Me thinks you might not live in the real world. The German pilots are peripheral characters in "Battle of Britain", and I'm not living in the real world? You could write them out of the script, I suppose, but then it would be a very boring movie. You did manage to avoid the point of the German pilot analogy, that there's a whole continent of white foreigners with whom you are very unlikely to identify and with whom you would have a very hard time communicating unless they happen to speak English. But white is white, right? And I agree that casting minority actors in minor roles is how the studios try to slide on the demographics of their movies. Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 9.10pm) We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 9.07pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Me thinks you might not live in the real world.

The German pilots are peripheral characters in "Battle of Britain", and I'm not living in the real world? You could write them out of the script, I suppose, but then it would be a very boring movie.

You did manage to avoid the point of the German pilot analogy, that there's a whole continent of white foreigners with whom you are very unlikely to identify and with whom you would have a very hard time communicating unless they happen to speak English. But white is white, right?

And I agree that casting minority actors in minor roles is how the studios try to slide on the demographics of their movies.

Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 9.10pm)

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 9.14pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger So when Black people call for more roles for Black actors or more Black role models on TV, that is racist is it? By your reckoning, it must be or else they would be happy to see only White faces. If such demographics are being under-represented, then no, not at all. If someone is calling for their race/creed/color/gender/orientation to be preferred over another just because...then yes. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 9.14pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

So when Black people call for more roles for Black actors or more Black role models on TV, that is racist is it?

By your reckoning, it must be or else they would be happy to see only White faces.

If such demographics are being under-represented, then no, not at all. If someone is calling for their race/creed/color/gender/orientation to be preferred over another just because...then yes.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 9.17pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger So you think that because 4% of the British population are Black, James Bond should be Black? I'd say that means that 4 out of every 100 Bonds should be Black by your reckoning. Nope. I'm saying that I wouldn't lose my s*** if she was black. I'd lose my s* if the movie was s, but Pierce Brosnan made a couple of stinkers, so it wouldn't necessarily be the fault of the actor or an unheard of occurrence in the Bond series. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa*ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 9.17pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

So you think that because 4% of the British population are Black, James Bond should be Black?
I'd say that means that 4 out of every 100 Bonds should be Black by your reckoning.

Nope. I'm saying that I wouldn't lose my s*** if she was black.

I'd lose my s*** if the movie was s***, but Pierce Brosnan made a couple of stinkers, so it wouldn't necessarily be the fault of the actor or an unheard of occurrence in the Bond series.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 18 Jul 17 9.23pm
This bond already has some royal connections... Attachment: bondDM2804_468x692.jpg (76.08Kb)

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 18 Jul 17 9.23pm

This bond already has some royal connections...

Attachment: bondDM2804_468x692.jpg (76.08Kb)

Part Time James 18 Jul 17 9.49pm
Originally posted by nickgusset This bond already has some royal connections... Would

Part Time James

18 Jul 17 9.49pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

This bond already has some royal connections...

Would

Stirlingsays 18 Jul 17 10.08pm
Originally posted by Part Time James Would Got Would. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

18 Jul 17 10.08pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

Would

Got Would.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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