Do you seriously think that Jews would be safe from the hatred of Arabs even if they hadn't expanded Israel?
Jews are a damaged people. They are like the child who was neglected and abused and has grown up to be the school bully. They won't be the victims again.

Their enemy are barbarians as they have just shown. Killing babies and raping and killing women.
Meanwhile, the leaders of Hamas hide among the population, hoping that Israelis kill Palestinians to inflame Arab feeling in the region.
Of course Israel should never have been allowed in the first place, but after WW2, the western world caved in to the sentiment of their position.
They also had their own terrorists who pushed their agenda. That is often overlooked.

I don't think you two disagree.

We know that the expansion of Israel to the present day was entirely enabled by victory in war. It was never given by the UN and thus was always illegal. The present boundaries exist along the 'might is right' principle that many attack Russia for today. Yet they have a blind spot for Israel because....well, the media only focus upon one narrative and for the obvious reason (Money/US/owners) and that the defeated are Muslims against Israel who also hate social liberals (which is the ruling doctrine of the west).

I don't think any left wing reader of these forums could accuse us three of being pro Muslim. However, that doesn't mean that injustice just gets a pass without comment.

Then again, I see it as reality....this is how the real world works. It isn't moral or right but I'm not willing to worsen my own situation for people who wouldn't lift a finger for mine.

However, speaking the truth is another matter....that's done for the conscience of the speaker not for advantage.

While it can still be done legally in this country I might add. There may soon see a time where unpopular opinions just aren't aired and the presence of manufactured consensus exists.

Anyone who murdered is a murderer regardless of which side it was from and this attack started on the Palestinian side......That doesn't absolve how the whole situation was reached but any innocent person who dies is an unwelcome scar on all of us.

Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Oct 2023 11.36am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Agree.

The whole situation seems nothing short of irresolvable to me, not to be too dramatic.

I think, unfortunately for us, we are too entangled in the whole debacle to not have it feature prominently in any mainstream narrative - our state of being wedded to the US, our interference in the Middle East historically and the prominence of a particular Jewish contingent in both our media and elsewhere.

The two elements of it that disturb me beyond the violence/death/misery of civilians is it's prominence in our mainstream media, above our own glaring issues, and the astounding contradictions. I am less well-versed in this than I am typically other things but I don't buy the whole 'Arab = Bad and Jew = eternally good' narrative. Without sounding too 'Ye-ish' the seemingly constant message of Jews being some virtuous, continually, unjustly maligned peoples is annoying, at the very least. I'm also inclined to believe those peddling this narrative sit separate to the majority of the Jewish population at home and elsewhere and have no care for their interests.

It seems as though there have been atrocities and utterly tragic circumstances on both sides, with neither willing to relent. The only hope must be for it to not get 'too out of hand' although it looks as though that hope is only just that currently. Any war seems unwinnable from the Palestinian side, but I can at least understand why they persist. Very sad in any circumstance. When you see dead/mutilated/severely affect children, you can't help but immediately dehumanise and condemn the perpetrators, regardless of their reasoning/motives.

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

I'm guessing the innocent people they have targeted are intended to reflect those who they would deem to be innocent victims on their side.

It's utterly barbarous and unforgivable as far as I am concerned and not worthy of debate let alone consideration but that just highlights the whole insanity and tragedy of the situation all round. It's a real life circumstance difficult to acknowledge let alone imagine the reality of.

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

A wider conflict is probably what both sides wouldn’t mind. I foresee that info will be ‘found’ linking Iran directly with the Hamas attack thereby giving Israel and the US the excuse to go after Iran. Saudi won’t object - in fact they’d probably join in- and we will have an Iraq type war all over again. Israel has said that they will change the face of the Middle East; they might mean this.

hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.

I agree with this. People aren't born as bloodthirsty terrorists. Ideologies and environments create them.

A month ago I was in Jerusalem and able to see at first hand the situation in the city, which was peaceful during my stay. I found the local Muslims to be much friendlier and approachable than most of the Jewish residents, especially the orthodox ones.

Hammas and their backers in Iran are the problem. Not the everyday people. Just look at how many of the people in Iran are protesting against their government's extremist attitudes these days. Nor are all of the people in Israel hardliners. Many are secularists and able to understand and even support, a better solution for the Palestinians. It's when the extremes are in control, as they are in both Israel and Gazza that this is the result.

Changing both is ultimately the only answer but it's not going to happen soon. In the meantime, we are going to witness a lot of bloodshed involving the innocent, which could, in turn, drive up the level of hatred rather than diminish it.

It puzzles me why Israel, created as it was after the atrocities in Nazi Germany, following the pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe, does not possess a more natural understanding of why the Palestinians feel as they do. A feeling which breeds the discontent which then allows the extremists to justify their actions to themselves.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.