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June 14 2024 3.02am

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 06 Jun 16 1.21pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I wouldn't call MPs showing a lack of care for the will of the electorate a development.


'Development' has more than one meaning.

 


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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 06 Jun 16 1.55pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

Some fella on fb take on it which i 99% agree with.


Amid the noise and mud-slinging of this referendum campaign, it’s easy to forget why the European Union was founded: to prevent war in Europe.

And it has succeeded. Not only in turning old enemies France and Germany into close allies, but also in spreading democracy, human rights and the rule of law into countries which were dictatorships until the 1970s (including Spain, Portugal and Greece), or under Soviet control until the end of the Cold War in the 1990s.

These are astonishing achievements.

Bringing peace and prosperity to a continent which had been ravaged by war for a thousand years previously. Successfully nurturing democracy in potentially highly unstable countries in our own backyard. Extending human rights and the rule of law to hundreds of millions of European people through diplomatic means.

The EU was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize in 2012 for precisely these achievements.

So it makes me sad that Britain is now poised to abandon this great project.

But at least I’m in good company. For since this referendum was announced, seemingly every leader of the free world has urged us to remain. US President Barack Obama. German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. And many, many more. In fact the only major overseas voices calling for Brexit seem to be US Presidential candidate Donald Trump and French National Front leader Marine Le Pen.

Meanwhile a consensus has emerged among British politicians and experts in favour of staying in the EU. Every current and former British Prime Minister. Every major UK political party leader except Nigel Farage. 300 leading historians. 83% of scientists. 40 religious leaders. Our six largest trades unions. 88% of economists. The Chief Executive of NHS England. The Royal College of Midwives. The National Farmers Union. An overwhelming majority of British businesses of all sizes.

The leave campaign glibly dismiss their concerns as ‘Project Fear’ – as if fear of Brexit was some kind of irrational phobia like being scared of spiders.

But there are clear and present dangers from leaving the EU – not least of course destabilising the institution that has brought peace to our continent for the first time in a thousand years.

Economists warn that Brexit will trigger a recession. People rightly take economists’ predictions with a pinch of salt. But you don’t need a complicated econometric model to tell you that investors don’t like risk. And you don’t need a crystal ball to see that risk and uncertainty will abound in the event of Brexit. For nobody – on either side of the debate – can tell you what our terms of trade would be with our largest trading partners afterwards. What kind of trade deals we might make to replace those which we would lose. What exit terms the other 27 EU countries would demand if we left. Or even whether we would remain in the Single Market or not. As a small business owner who trades with both EU and non-EU countries, let me tell you: these are not minor details.

And let me address one of the most pernicious myths of this campaign. That remaining in Europe is good for the elite, whilst leaving is good for the ‘man in the street’. Rubbish. The elite will be fine either way. They’ll find something else to do, or somewhere else to go, if the worst comes to the worst. But the man in the street? He’s the one who’ll be made redundant if a recession hits. He’s the one who will find his budget stretched beyond breaking point if our currency depreciates and imports become more expensive. For the dismal truth is: when economic trouble strikes, it’s those who can least afford it that suffer the most.

One thing we can say for sure is that whatever happens in the EU referendum, the next British General Election isn’t scheduled until 2020. We probably will have a new prime minister before then though as Cameron has indicated he’ll step down during this Parliament. Sooner rather than later I expect if he loses the referendum. So if we do leave the EU, the renegotiation of our employment rights and environmental safeguards currently handled by the EU will fall to the triumphant Eurosceptic right-wing of the Tory party. Is that what you want? Possibly, if you’re one of the eccentric billionaires or offshore media moguls who is behind the leave campaign. But I fear for ordinary voters (including moderate Conservatives like me) that would be a very worrying dynamic.

Some say that it is not the EU but NATO which secures our peace. They are half right. NATO is our most powerful military alliance. But as we have learned time and again, you cannot bomb another country into becoming a peaceful democracy. And whether you care about their citizens or not, it matters to Britain whether our neighbours are democracies or despotisms. Nothing has been more effective in spreading democracy and the rule of law in our neighbourhood over the last 40 years than the European Union. Yet oddly it’s those same people who say that being an EU member involves an intolerable loss of sovereignty. Giving up powers which should reside at home. I say oddly as they almost never complain about our NATO membership, which does exactly the same thing – sharing our sovereign power with other nations to achieve a greater outcome than we could achieve on our own. To the EU, we must pay a membership fee, accept free movement of people and the supremacy of EU law. Not insignificant contributions. But less significant than having to declare war if somebody attacks a NATO ally. And Britain is of course free to leave the EU whenever she likes through a simple majority vote in Parliament and the exercise of Article 50.

And this is my final observation: this referendum is asymmetric. If we leave, and then decide we made the wrong choice, rejoining would require the consent of all 27 other member states. But if we remain, and then decide later that we wish to leave, Britain can do that on her own through a simple Act of Parliament. So if there’s any doubt at all in our minds, then clearly it is better to remain and keep our options open than to leave and be at the mercy of 27 other countries should we later realise our error.

Interesting that he doesn't mention the economic malaise currently being enjoyed by the Eurozone. Or the high youth unemployment is Southern Europe. Or the fact that EUR 133.6 Bn of EU budget payments in 2014 were affected by 'material error' (see The Times, 10 November 2015). That NATO has done more to preserve peace in Europe than the EU ever has. That the EU, in its current form, is beyond reform. It doesn't want reform because it knows it cannot achieve reform. Or the fact that the EU is presiding over a humanitarian crisis in the Med, playing lip service and liberal concern over actually doing anything constructive to restor Syria to peace and allowed its refugees to return to their homes.

But crucially, it doesn't say the truth about what would happen following a leave vote. That would be two years of negotiations which would either kill or reform the EU. We will not reform the EU by votin remain.

Therefore, enjoy the carefully scripted piece from one of the paid advisers and spinners at Remain and pass it off as the work of the common man. But it is, essentially, bollocks.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View dannyh's Profile dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 06 Jun 16 2.22pm Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Interesting that he doesn't mention the economic malaise currently being enjoyed by the Eurozone. Or the high youth unemployment is Southern Europe. Or the fact that EUR 133.6 Bn of EU budget payments in 2014 were affected by 'material error' (see The Times, 10 November 2015). That NATO has done more to preserve peace in Europe than the EU ever has. That the EU, in its current form, is beyond reform. It doesn't want reform because it knows it cannot achieve reform. Or the fact that the EU is presiding over a humanitarian crisis in the Med, playing lip service and liberal concern over actually doing anything constructive to restor Syria to peace and allowed its refugees to return to their homes.

But crucially, it doesn't say the truth about what would happen following a leave vote. That would be two years of negotiations which would either kill or reform the EU. We will not reform the EU by votin remain.

Therefore, enjoy the carefully scripted piece from one of the paid advisers and spinners at Remain and pass it off as the work of the common man. But it is, essentially, bollocks.

As has been every single piece of nonsense the remain pansies have spewed fourth.

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 06 Jun 16 2.35pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Interesting that he doesn't mention the economic malaise currently being enjoyed by the Eurozone. Or the high youth unemployment is Southern Europe. Or the fact that EUR 133.6 Bn of EU budget payments in 2014 were affected by 'material error' (see The Times, 10 November 2015). That NATO has done more to preserve peace in Europe than the EU ever has. That the EU, in its current form, is beyond reform. It doesn't want reform because it knows it cannot achieve reform. Or the fact that the EU is presiding over a humanitarian crisis in the Med, playing lip service and liberal concern over actually doing anything constructive to restor Syria to peace and allowed its refugees to return to their homes.

But crucially, it doesn't say the truth about what would happen following a leave vote. That would be two years of negotiations which would either kill or reform the EU. We will not reform the EU by votin remain.

Therefore, enjoy the carefully scripted piece from one of the paid advisers and spinners at Remain and pass it off as the work of the common man. But it is, essentially, bollocks.

Think he is a sous chef/catering company chap.

If you truly think what he has written is bollocks then it just confirms that you are right to be in the leave camp. It also confirms that your judgement is seriously flawed and makes me wonder how many of your fellow Brexiteers suffer from the same lack of historical perspective and have such a parochial stance on the European project.

God help us if you lot win.

btw the refugees don't have any homes left to go to. Keep up.

 


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View beagle's Profile beagle Flag pom tiddly om pom pom 06 Jun 16 2.43pm Send a Private Message to beagle Add beagle as a friend

Martin Lewis seems to be one of the few people able to give a fairly level-headed view on the debate.

[Link]

His view (remain) is based on his own economic risk assessment. But he also says that 'risk', in itself, isn't a bad thing so people should assess their own 'risk aversion' in their decision making. However, what he doesn't do is trash-talk Brexit but lists the perfectly valid reasons for leaving.

Good man. Wish the political class would do the same.

 


When the time comes, I want die just like my Dad - at peace and asleep.
Not screaming and terrified.
Like his passengers.

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 06 Jun 16 2.47pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

Think he is a sous chef/catering company chap.

If you truly think what he has written is bollocks then it just confirms that you are right to be in the leave camp. It also confirms that your judgement is seriously flawed and makes me wonder how many of your fellow Brexiteers suffer from the same lack of historical perspective and have such a parochial stance on the European project.

God help us if you lot win.

btw the refugees don't have any homes left to go to. Keep up.

A sous chef? Yeah right. More like a paid hack in Millbank pretending to be a sous chef.

Your stance has been the same since you posted the initial s***e on this thread - you are low on fact, high on hate and have no argument other than the Remain camp official line.

I actually believe that you don't believe it all yourself but have forced yourself into a corner and now cannot criticise the EU one aota. It's clear that you can't debate, you just throw insults and platitudes.

You are no free honking liberal. You are a mainstream bourgeoise droog, regurgitating everything he establishment tell you to.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 06 Jun 16 2.51pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

A sous chef? Yeah right. More like a paid hack in Millbank pretending to be a sous chef.

Your stance has been the same since you posted the initial s***e on this thread - you are low on fact, high on hate and have no argument other than the Remain camp official line.

I actually believe that you don't believe it all yourself but have forced yourself into a corner and now cannot criticise the EU one aota. It's clear that you can't debate, you just throw insults and platitudes.

You are no free honking liberal. You are a mainstream bourgeoise droog, regurgitating everything he establishment tell you to.

That's the first tier of Graham's hierarchy of discussion.

 

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View Lyons550's Profile Lyons550 Flag Shirley 06 Jun 16 3.41pm Send a Private Message to Lyons550 Add Lyons550 as a friend

Im still undecided...Long term I think 'Leave' is the answer but speaking as someone who is trying to sell their house at the mo a 'Remain' vote will likely ensure the price doesn't plummet before the sale is agreed.

...and I guess that in a nutshell is where most voters will be coming from...a vote that suits themselves and not the Nation as a whole.

if the nation chooses LEAVE then it'll likely result in austerity carrying on for a decade whilst our Service led economy makes the transition to a more balanced Service/Manufacture based one.

A vote to REMAIN will see us treading water for years with countries that know we really wanted out but didn't have the balls to vote to do so.

Whether or not I vote with my head or my wallet remains to be seen ...but whatever the outcome our 'relationship' with the EU and the EU itself will never be the same again.

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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Hoof Hearted 06 Jun 16 3.45pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Brexiteers Donald and Le Pen alone trumps that lot for obnoxiousness.

I haven't even started on your overseas supporters!

 

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 06 Jun 16 3.49pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

I haven't even started on your overseas supporters!

Don't bother with him. He is regurgitating verbatim what he is told to think by the political elite.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 06 Jun 16 4.04pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

A sous chef? Yeah right. More like a paid hack in Millbank pretending to be a sous chef.

Your stance has been the same since you posted the initial s***e on this thread - you are low on fact, high on hate and have no argument other than the Remain camp official line.

I actually believe that you don't believe it all yourself but have forced yourself into a corner and now cannot criticise the EU one aota. It's clear that you can't debate, you just throw insults and platitudes.

You are no free honking liberal. You are a mainstream bourgeoise droog, regurgitating everything he establishment tell you to.

Well done you. A post where you don't mention the word 'racist' or 'white'.

There's hope yet.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 06 Jun 16 4.05pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Don't bother with him. He is regurgitating verbatim what he is told to think by the political elite.

You are on a roll, old son.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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