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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Jun 16 10.31pm

made me chuckle.
Trans Europe Express.

kraftwerk.jpg Attachment: kraftwerk.jpg (27.13Kb)

 

Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 21 Jun 16 10.43pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

All I can say is that you and the new EUed version of Wisbech deserve each other.

Wisbech was always a bit of an exception, although it has now been several years since I was there. We should never vote on how things affect us personally, especially on this issue.

How is the Sportsman?

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Rubin Flag 21 Jun 16 10.51pm

Questionable:

[Link]

 

Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 21 Jun 16 10.51pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Wisbech was always a bit of an exception, although it has now been several years since I was there. We should never vote on how things affect us personally, especially on this issue.

How is the Sportsman?

A lot on the Brexit side are doing exactly that. For a lot of us the negatives of immigration will never affect us but it does for many now/ And more than likely it will affect future generations more and more, although possibly not our own offspring as much, but I wouldn't count on that one. 3 million people in net migration every 10 years alone before birth and death rates.

And on the economic issue it is very possible that the country is being held back because of EU membership. Again, an area that may not affect us personally in the slightest but certainly affects others now.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (21 Jun 2016 10.59pm)

 


COYP

Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 21 Jun 16 10.58pm

Originally posted by Rubin

Questionable:

[Link]

Her name used to be Gisela Gschaider, it is now Stuart. She has a British husband, British citizenship for years, British children, she respects the English and British way of life and from what we can see, intends to stay here indefinitely and carry on serving as an MP. Why shouldn't she have an opinion? Wasn't not being allowed an opinion as an MP that led to that deranged mess to end someone's life?

She's a Brtish MP FFS, not Barack Obama or Angela Merkel trying to save her cushy German export project.

 


COYP

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 22 Jun 16 12.13am

This sums up a dilemma many have... Illustrates why I'm finding it hard to choose.

JUNE 21ST, 2016 Kerry-anne Mendoza KERRY-ANNE MENDOZA

The cruel trick that means however you vote on the EU, we’re all screwed


EDITORIAL

Britain is hurtling ever closer to the day of the Brexit vote. In a very short while, the public will cast their ballots to remain in the EU, or leave. But however they vote, one thing is sure: the EU Referendum is one of the cruellest tricks ever played on the British public.

The Referendum is not about our fate in the EU, or controlling our borders, or protecting our sovereignty as a nation, or enhancing our democracy. It is, as is almost everything in modern politics, about wealth and power.

If the EU Referendum was a genuine debate about the future of our nation, it would look very different.

First, and most importantly, there would be a general election set shortly afterwards. There may even be leadership elections set for the major political parties too. This would mean that voters could not only choose whether to leave or remain in the EU, but how they would leave or remain in the EU.

Each party (and indeed factions within each) would have set out a clear vision on whether to leave or remain in the EU, and what each of those choices would look like under their leadership. Referendum voters would know that after the vote, they could then elect to government the people they felt most confident could deliver that future.



For example, people who wish to leave the EU because they find it anti-democratic, but wish to perform a ‘Lexit’ (a left wing exit) – could have that choice. They could say goodbye to Brussels, but retain key protections in UK law for working people, disabled people, ethnic minorities and so on. They could rebel against the neoliberal economic orthodoxies of the EU, and advance a democratic socialist agenda at home. They could kiss goodbye to TTIP, and rest assured that there would be no sinister new free trade agreement put in its place. They could work for the outlook of Britain to remain global, while the decision-making remained local. But in the absence of a general election, there is no chance of a Lexit whatsoever. This leaves an entire swathe of left-wing eurosceptics with a truly horrible choice. First, they can vote to remain in an EU that has become so anti-democratic that it deposed the democratically elected leaders of Greece and Italy in order to push through its economic and political agenda. Second, they can vote to leave on the terms of a UK government to the right of that anti-democratic institution. This means, whether they like it or not, they are voting to lose key civil, human and workers’ rights, to accelerate a TTIP-style trade deal, to see British science, technology and engineering take a massive hit, and see any resulting recession become the pretext for austerity on steroids. What a choice!

But it isn’t just the left who are being shafted in this vote. At the other end of the spectrum, the right are being done over too. Those who wish to see Britain cut immigration dramatically are going to be bitterly disappointed in the event of a Brexit vote. The economics embraced by David Cameron and the conservatives doesn’t permit protectionism – or ‘looking after our own’. This is why they do nothing for working class Britons losing jobs because their bosses choose to exploit immigrant labour. This is why they do nothing when companies ship British jobs overseas to exploit workers in far away countries. They are not patriots, or nationalists. They think as part of a trans-national capitalist class. The bottom line for them is the profit and loss accounts of themselves and their peers, not the personal aspirations of 31 million working people in Britain, or the near 2 million unemployed. The right can rest assured that if Britain leaves the EU and the Conservatives stay in power – there will be every bit as much, if not more, exploitation of immigrant and overseas labour, and all the losses of jobs, wages and working conditions that go along with it.

All things considered, we are forced to conclude that the only groups to win from this EU Referendum are the very same groups that have won for the last two decades: those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Those who see the NHS not as the foundation rock of our public health, but as a cash cow, ripe for milking. Those who see housing not as the basis for family and community life, but as a market in which to speculate and accumulate. Those who see education not as a ladder leading people up to a better place in the world, but as a means of turning our young people into debtors with hefty student loans which shackle them for life. Those who see immigration as a way of lowering working conditions and wages to the lowest common denominator. Those who see trade deals as another way of doing the same.

The rest of us – UKIP voters, one nation Conservatives, traditional or social conservatives, socialists or social democrats, radical lefties, greens – all of us are being screwed by this seemingly untouchable, indifferent political and media class. While we might disagree on the solutions, we are all craving remarkably similar things at the heart of it: community, safety, prosperity, good neighbourliness and civility, respect, integrity in our institutions, individual freedom. And none of us are going to get these things through this EU Referendum. Instead, it is likely that whichever way we vote, they will remain firmly out of our reach until we take far bolder steps at the ballot box come general election time.

This whole sham of a Referendum is a giant missed opportunity to reshape our nation in real and fundamental ways. Proving once again, that if we want a genuine transformation of this country, we’re going to have to do it ourselves.

[Link]

 

Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 22 Jun 16 12.33am

Originally posted by nickgusset

This sums up a dilemma many have... Illustrates why I'm finding it hard to choose.

JUNE 21ST, 2016 Kerry-anne Mendoza KERRY-ANNE MENDOZA

The cruel trick that means however you vote on the EU, we’re all screwed


EDITORIAL

Britain is hurtling ever closer to the day of the Brexit vote. In a very short while, the public will cast their ballots to remain in the EU, or leave. But however they vote, one thing is sure: the EU Referendum is one of the cruellest tricks ever played on the British public.

The Referendum is not about our fate in the EU, or controlling our borders, or protecting our sovereignty as a nation, or enhancing our democracy. It is, as is almost everything in modern politics, about wealth and power.

If the EU Referendum was a genuine debate about the future of our nation, it would look very different.

First, and most importantly, there would be a general election set shortly afterwards. There may even be leadership elections set for the major political parties too. This would mean that voters could not only choose whether to leave or remain in the EU, but how they would leave or remain in the EU.

Each party (and indeed factions within each) would have set out a clear vision on whether to leave or remain in the EU, and what each of those choices would look like under their leadership. Referendum voters would know that after the vote, they could then elect to government the people they felt most confident could deliver that future.



For example, people who wish to leave the EU because they find it anti-democratic, but wish to perform a ‘Lexit’ (a left wing exit) – could have that choice. They could say goodbye to Brussels, but retain key protections in UK law for working people, disabled people, ethnic minorities and so on. They could rebel against the neoliberal economic orthodoxies of the EU, and advance a democratic socialist agenda at home. They could kiss goodbye to TTIP, and rest assured that there would be no sinister new free trade agreement put in its place. They could work for the outlook of Britain to remain global, while the decision-making remained local. But in the absence of a general election, there is no chance of a Lexit whatsoever. This leaves an entire swathe of left-wing eurosceptics with a truly horrible choice. First, they can vote to remain in an EU that has become so anti-democratic that it deposed the democratically elected leaders of Greece and Italy in order to push through its economic and political agenda. Second, they can vote to leave on the terms of a UK government to the right of that anti-democratic institution. This means, whether they like it or not, they are voting to lose key civil, human and workers’ rights, to accelerate a TTIP-style trade deal, to see British science, technology and engineering take a massive hit, and see any resulting recession become the pretext for austerity on steroids. What a choice!

But it isn’t just the left who are being shafted in this vote. At the other end of the spectrum, the right are being done over too. Those who wish to see Britain cut immigration dramatically are going to be bitterly disappointed in the event of a Brexit vote. The economics embraced by David Cameron and the conservatives doesn’t permit protectionism – or ‘looking after our own’. This is why they do nothing for working class Britons losing jobs because their bosses choose to exploit immigrant labour. This is why they do nothing when companies ship British jobs overseas to exploit workers in far away countries. They are not patriots, or nationalists. They think as part of a trans-national capitalist class. The bottom line for them is the profit and loss accounts of themselves and their peers, not the personal aspirations of 31 million working people in Britain, or the near 2 million unemployed. The right can rest assured that if Britain leaves the EU and the Conservatives stay in power – there will be every bit as much, if not more, exploitation of immigrant and overseas labour, and all the losses of jobs, wages and working conditions that go along with it.

All things considered, we are forced to conclude that the only groups to win from this EU Referendum are the very same groups that have won for the last two decades: those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Those who see the NHS not as the foundation rock of our public health, but as a cash cow, ripe for milking. Those who see housing not as the basis for family and community life, but as a market in which to speculate and accumulate. Those who see education not as a ladder leading people up to a better place in the world, but as a means of turning our young people into debtors with hefty student loans which shackle them for life. Those who see immigration as a way of lowering working conditions and wages to the lowest common denominator. Those who see trade deals as another way of doing the same.

The rest of us – UKIP voters, one nation Conservatives, traditional or social conservatives, socialists or social democrats, radical lefties, greens – all of us are being screwed by this seemingly untouchable, indifferent political and media class. While we might disagree on the solutions, we are all craving remarkably similar things at the heart of it: community, safety, prosperity, good neighbourliness and civility, respect, integrity in our institutions, individual freedom. And none of us are going to get these things through this EU Referendum. Instead, it is likely that whichever way we vote, they will remain firmly out of our reach until we take far bolder steps at the ballot box come general election time.

This whole sham of a Referendum is a giant missed opportunity to reshape our nation in real and fundamental ways. Proving once again, that if we want a genuine transformation of this country, we’re going to have to do it ourselves.

[Link]

You've been on this thread for 17 Hours, I would of thought you had an inkling to which way your going to vote!!

 


Pro USA & Israel

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 22 Jun 16 8.49am

My biggest problem with voting remain is the fact that we won't have 'permission' to renationalise railways etc. That's why I found it curious that Corbyn is a remainer.
My biggest problems with voting leave is I think the Tories would fast track more policies to hinder workers rights,be more punitive towards the have not and Gove et al look likely to take over. Also they'd change constituency boundaries to suit their own ends very quickly.
I also think that the press would ramp up their campaign against Labour.

I will join the debate again later. Just about to start a new job!

Edited by nickgusset (22 Jun 2016 8.49am)

 

Rubin Flag 22 Jun 16 9.07am

Don't forget TTIP.

They were saying on the radio yesterday that when it comes to TTIP and the NHS, the NHS got ring fenced from being seen as 'monopoly' which would have meant that businesses could have sued the UK government in secret courts if they felt they'd been treated unfairly when it came to contracts. This exclusion was later withdrawn.

As an example, if the UK government were to bring in a law limiting the amount of sugar allowed in soft drinks, it would mean that a company such as Coca Cola could sue for loss of profits.

On the food standards that TTIP would impose on Europe: [Link]

Edited by Rubin (22 Jun 2016 9.07am)

 

Part Time James Flag 22 Jun 16 9.09am

Originally posted by nickgusset

made me chuckle.
Trans Europe Express.

That was a welcome breather in the heated debate!

 




Part Time James Flag 22 Jun 16 9.18am

Originally posted by Part Time James

That was a welcome breather in the heated debate!

Also, was this the worst Kraftwerk gig ever because Florian Schneider clearly isn't there and there is a distinct lack of depth to the synths?

 




Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 22 Jun 16 9.23am

Frankly, I'm done on this debate.

I see a lot off people quibbling over the details of this and that but not many thinking about the wider long term questions.
What will remaining in Europe mean for Britain in the long term?
That is what matters.

I can only see our importance and influence in Europe and the World being diminished by remaining. As more people join the EU as I'm sure they will, our vote on anything will be less influential and more and more people will be able to come here to compete for jobs, housing etc.
We have to have more control over that and we have to see the downside of the inevitability of the United States of Europe. Ideologically, that union sounds appealing but in reality each country will have it's interests weighed against all the others and the interests of those of the EU as a whole and those who run it.
We are only part of Europe by geography. We do not need to be governed by it because that will be the inevitable outcome if we remain.

VOTE LEAVE.

 

Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 22 Jun 16 9.29am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Frankly, I'm done on this debate.

I see a lot off people quibbling over the details of this and that but not many thinking about the wider long term questions.
What will remaining in Europe mean for Britain in the long term?
That is what matters.

I can only see our importance and influence in Europe and the World being diminished by remaining. As more people join the EU as I'm sure they will, our vote on anything will be less influential and more and more people will be able to come here to compete for jobs, housing etc.
We have to have more control over that and we have to see the downside of the inevitability of the United States of Europe. Ideologically, that union sounds appealing but in reality each country will have it's interests weighed against all the others and the interests of those of the EU as a whole and those who run it.
We are only part of Europe by geography. We do not need to be governed by it because that will be the inevitable outcome if we remain.

VOTE LEAVE.

Hrolf

I couldn't agree more.

 

Part Time James Flag 22 Jun 16 9.29am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Frankly, I'm done on this debate.

I see a lot off people quibbling over the details of this and that but not many thinking about the wider long term questions.
What will remaining in Europe mean for Britain in the long term?
That is what matters.

I can only see our importance and influence in Europe and the World being diminished by remaining. As more people join the EU as I'm sure they will, our vote on anything will be less influential and more and more people will be able to come here to compete for jobs, housing etc.
We have to have more control over that and we have to see the downside of the inevitability of the United States of Europe. Ideologically, that union sounds appealing but in reality each country will have it's interests weighed against all the others and the interests of those of the EU as a whole and those who run it.
We are only part of Europe by geography. We do not need to be governed by it because that will be the inevitable outcome if we remain.

VOTE LEAVE.


The problem with the debate for me is that the only people debating the subject are people that had already made their mind up for Leave or Remain. I doubt (although can't say this as a fact) very few people have been influenced by these kind of debates.

I'll be honest, I include myself in that. Before ever even opening this thread I knew I wanted to vote Leave. I have read a lot of things on here that have reinforced my views (in particular I think one of your comments), but I have also read a lot of things that have given me doubts about whether I will be making the right choice (well, none of us really know anyway). But I haven't changed my mind. I'm not sure many "don't knows" will have been on here and they are probably the ONLY people who we could've influenced one way or another.

It's 200 pages now of interesting debate but I bet there are very few contributors to this thread that are going to vote any differently to the way they'd have voted before this discussion started.

I take no issue with that by the way, I just think it's in our nature.


Edited by Part Time James (22 Jun 2016 9.31am)

 




Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 22 Jun 16 9.45am

Originally posted by Part Time James


The problem with the debate for me is that the only people debating the subject are people that had already made their mind up for Leave or Remain. I doubt (although can't say this as a fact) very few people have been influenced by these kind of debates.

I'll be honest, I include myself in that. Before ever even opening this thread I knew I wanted to vote Leave. I have read a lot of things on here that have reinforced my views (in particular I think one of your comments), but I have also read a lot of things that have given me doubts about whether I will be making the right choice (well, none of us really know anyway). But I haven't changed my mind. I'm not sure many "don't knows" will have been on here and they are probably the ONLY people who we could've influenced one way or another.

It's 200 pages now of interesting debate but I bet there are very few contributors to this thread that are going to vote any differently to the way they'd have voted before this discussion started.

I take no issue with that by the way, I just think it's in our nature.


Edited by Part Time James (22 Jun 2016 9.31am)

Perhaps it's better that people vote with conviction rather than deciding based on something they read on a thread.
I'd just like people to think about how Britain will be in 20 years, 50 years or 100 years rather than worrying about some short term economic issue.
Do we like the idea of European government or World government for our children, grand children and beyond?

Can we look at the downsides of reducing autonomy rather than being caught up in some fantasy ideological fairytale of peace and love? It's not ever gonna happen.

 

Part Time James Flag 22 Jun 16 9.51am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Perhaps it's better that people vote with conviction rather than deciding based on something they read on a thread.
I'd just like people to think about how Britain will be in 20 years, 50 years or 100 years rather than worrying about some short term economic issue.
Do we like the idea of European government or World government for our children, grand children and beyond?

Can we look at the downsides of reducing autonomy rather than being caught up in some fantasy ideological fairytale of peace and love? It's not ever gonna happen.

Even worse, I have seen people posting up "he said/she said" type memes on social media and wonder whether they think they are influencing anyone. Most of it is utterly puerile.

 




EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 22 Jun 16 9.52am

Originally posted by Part Time James


The problem with the debate for me is that the only people debating the subject are people that had already made their mind up for Leave or Remain. I doubt (although can't say this as a fact) very few people have been influenced by these kind of debates.

I'll be honest, I include myself in that. Before ever even opening this thread I knew I wanted to vote Leave. I have read a lot of things on here that have reinforced my views (in particular I think one of your comments), but I have also read a lot of things that have given me doubts about whether I will be making the right choice (well, none of us really know anyway). But I haven't changed my mind. I'm not sure many "don't knows" will have been on here and they are probably the ONLY people who we could've influenced one way or another.

It's 200 pages now of interesting debate but I bet there are very few contributors to this thread that are going to vote any differently to the way they'd have voted before this discussion started.

I take no issue with that by the way, I just think it's in our nature.


Edited by Part Time James (22 Jun 2016 9.31am)

Agree with your summary, and my position is moreorless the same - my vote has not changed, but certain points from leave have made me think twice about my decision - in fact, one of your posts yesterday about looking at the bigger picture, and not voting solely on the low-level left v right immigration argument, did make me ponder my motives.

I think the issue is both side's unwillingness to accept the positives of the other side, and this makes it hard for anyone to consider their argument unbiased enough to allow it to change their mind - there are pros and cons to both arguments, and the unwillingness to accept this is pretty frustrating to see.

 

Hoof Hearted 22 Jun 16 10.01am

Originally posted by Stuk

The proportion of those sort of people, out of the total that wish to leave will be a tiny, tiny number.

Stop pandering or aiming your posts at the morons. In this thread you have been, almost, as sad as the official campaigns.

I want to know what happened to Kermit8 to produce this shadow of his former self?

It's like a different person!

Alien invasion?

 

Part Time James Flag 22 Jun 16 10.07am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Agree with your summary, and my position is moreorless the same - my vote has not changed, but certain points from leave have made me think twice about my decision - in fact, one of your posts yesterday about looking at the bigger picture, and not voting solely on the low-level left v right immigration argument, did make me ponder my motives.

I think the issue is both side's unwillingness to accept the positives of the other side, and this makes it hard for anyone to consider their argument unbiased enough to allow it to change their mind - there are pros and cons to both arguments, and the unwillingness to accept this is pretty frustrating to see.

Agreed, and it is more concerning to think "what is in it for this person to represent this opinion?"

I don't have a lot of confidence that any politician on either side of the debate is representing that position for the good of the country. At least, I don't think it is a higher priority than furthering their own careers.

At least when we are lied to leading up to a general election and go to the booth under-qualified to vote, we know we'll get another chance to make amends in the near future. With this one it could be (will be) quite a lasting decision.

 




palace_in_frogland Flag In a broken dream 22 Jun 16 10.10am

Originally posted by Part Time James

Also, was this the worst Kraftwerk gig ever because Florian Schneider clearly isn't there and there is a distinct lack of depth to the synths?

And they refused to do "Autobahn" as an encore?

 

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