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cryrst The garden of England 07 Sep 19 1.49pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I am no fan of Corbyn but Johnson's problem is that it isn't Corbyn who he is up against, however much he tries to frame it that way. It's Parliament as a whole, including a significant number of people who until recently were senior figures in his own party. As Corbyn is a very experienced Parliamentarian who understands the conventions and processes as well as anyone he also presents a formidable opponent at this time, whatever you think of his politics. He is also handling himself with more dignity and gravitas than Johnson, which won't be missed by the average voter. Corbyn could have instructed on how his lot voted.

cryrst

The garden of England 07 Sep 19 1.49pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I am no fan of Corbyn but Johnson's problem is that it isn't Corbyn who he is up against, however much he tries to frame it that way. It's Parliament as a whole, including a significant number of people who until recently were senior figures in his own party.

As Corbyn is a very experienced Parliamentarian who understands the conventions and processes as well as anyone he also presents a formidable opponent at this time, whatever you think of his politics.

He is also handling himself with more dignity and gravitas than Johnson, which won't be missed by the average voter.

Corbyn could have instructed on how his lot voted.

cryrst The garden of England 07 Sep 19 1.52pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman I begin to find myself caring less, until I see the fancy dress pro EU oddballs outside Parliament (the town crier over interviews gets on my t1ts) and how many of the heavily pro EU public will happily sell this country out completely so it has completely lost its identity because of things like: Lack of pride Feeling their nation of England or Britain or ancestory isn’t interesting or diverse enough, too plain or embarrassing because of the people Emily Thornberry looks down at. You are what you are. Embrace it or deal with it. Move away if you don’t like it. There’s a solution. Guilt for things decades and centuries before them. No concern for anyone outside of their socio economic group. Apart from some principled people, I believe this to be the case. I’ve said this before but I’d be quite happy to encourage millions of young Mediterranean graduates into Britain like Blair did with cheap east Europeans that have cost people in lower socio economic groups or some industries. Then we’d see how much they love the EU when post graduates are in unskilled or low skilled jobs for many years to come. There are really only 2 things that concern me with leaving. 1. Medicine that needs to kept in controlled environments and temperatures. 2. JIT Just In Time car industry manufacturing. I can’t think of anything else that’s are that much of a concern and can’t be solved. Even those 2 can be with some organisation. Medication has been stockpiled and the car industry is being removed with or without brexit.if they can build cheaper elsewhere to make more profit they will. Any business would.

cryrst

The garden of England 07 Sep 19 1.52pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

I begin to find myself caring less, until I see the fancy dress pro EU oddballs outside Parliament (the town crier over interviews gets on my t1ts) and how many of the heavily pro EU public will happily sell this country out completely so it has completely lost its identity because of things like:

Lack of pride

Feeling their nation of England or Britain or ancestory isn’t interesting or diverse enough, too plain or embarrassing because of the people Emily Thornberry looks down at. You are what you are. Embrace it or deal with it. Move away if you don’t like it. There’s a solution.

Guilt for things decades and centuries before them.

No concern for anyone outside of their socio economic group. Apart from some principled people, I believe this to be the case.

I’ve said this before but I’d be quite happy to encourage millions of young Mediterranean graduates into Britain like Blair did with cheap east Europeans that have cost people in lower socio economic groups or some industries. Then we’d see how much they love the EU when post graduates are in unskilled or low skilled jobs for many years to come.

There are really only 2 things that concern me with leaving.

1. Medicine that needs to kept in controlled environments and temperatures.

2. JIT Just In Time car industry manufacturing.

I can’t think of anything else that’s are that much of a concern and can’t be solved. Even those 2 can be with some organisation.

Medication has been stockpiled and the car industry is being removed with or without brexit.if they can build cheaper elsewhere to make more profit they will.
Any business would.

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chris123 hove actually 07 Sep 19 2.26pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle In trying to find an exit route that they can all agree upon and which is also acceptable to the rest of the EU they have indeed honoured their commitment. When the whole of the "leave" campaign was predicated upon the idea that a deal would not only be negotiated but would be a piece of cake to arrange you must expect Parliament to seek one. But there is a deal, agreed with the EU. It's Parliament has not backed it - three times.

chris123

hove actually 07 Sep 19 2.26pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

In trying to find an exit route that they can all agree upon and which is also acceptable to the rest of the EU they have indeed honoured their commitment. When the whole of the "leave" campaign was predicated upon the idea that a deal would not only be negotiated but would be a piece of cake to arrange you must expect Parliament to seek one.

But there is a deal, agreed with the EU. It's Parliament has not backed it - three times.

dynamicdick Dormansland 07 Sep 19 2.35pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Excellent points. You have surpassed yourself Willo, great post. As you rightly say as of yet Parliament haven’t come up with any alternative proposals. The onus is now on them. Bring back Brolin

dynamicdick

Dormansland 07 Sep 19 2.35pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Excellent points.

You have surpassed yourself Willo, great post. As you rightly say as of yet Parliament haven’t come up with any alternative proposals. The onus is now on them.

Bring back Brolin

dannyboy1978 07 Sep 19 2.43pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle For the umpteenth time. We don't vote in delegates. We vote in representatives. They are not sent there to act on behalf of a small number of party members. They are sent there to use their wisdom to decide for themselves what is the best interests of everyone in their constituency and the country as a whole. So what your saying is the representatives gave us a referendum so we could leave. They then voted for artical 50 in order to leave. Then block brexit every way they can. Where is the wisdom in this? Edited by dannyboy1978 (07 Sep 2019 2.44pm)

dannyboy1978

07 Sep 19 2.43pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

For the umpteenth time.

We don't vote in delegates. We vote in representatives. They are not sent there to act on behalf of a small number of party members. They are sent there to use their wisdom to decide for themselves what is the best interests of everyone in their constituency and the country as a whole.

So what your saying is the representatives gave us a referendum so we could leave. They then voted for artical 50 in order to leave. Then block brexit every way they can.
Where is the wisdom in this?

Edited by dannyboy1978 (07 Sep 2019 2.44pm)

Stirlingsays 07 Sep 19 3.47pm
Still chewing away at my popcorn. Back when this was a great nation traitors didn't fare too well for too long. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Sep 2019 3.48pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

07 Sep 19 3.47pm

Still chewing away at my popcorn.
Back when this was a great nation traitors didn't fare too well for too long.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Sep 2019 3.48pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Spiderman Horsham 07 Sep 19 4.28pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle You don't leave the only option on the table as something which is unacceptable to your own Parliament! You need to show them that you have an alternative which they can accept. Without that your position is pointless. What you seem to forget is that Johnson is not a dictator able to commit the UK on his own. He is a PM who speaks only with the authority given to him by Parliament. As I have said several times before this dispute is much more than simply a wrangle over Brexit. It is a fundamental challenge to the way our system works and Parliament cannot allow itself to lose it. This is not rocket science, you do not take it off the table if you want to negotiate a good deal

Spiderman

Horsham 07 Sep 19 4.28pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You don't leave the only option on the table as something which is unacceptable to your own Parliament! You need to show them that you have an alternative which they can accept. Without that your position is pointless.

What you seem to forget is that Johnson is not a dictator able to commit the UK on his own. He is a PM who speaks only with the authority given to him by Parliament.

As I have said several times before this dispute is much more than simply a wrangle over Brexit. It is a fundamental challenge to the way our system works and Parliament cannot allow itself to lose it.

This is not rocket science, you do not take it off the table if you want to negotiate a good deal

johnno42000 07 Sep 19 4.51pm
I see BJ may defy the law and could end up inside. Apart from his time at Eton preparing him for this, 'trousers down, todgers out', I wonder if he could get a cell with Charles Bronson as his cell mate? Bronson and Johnson has a nice weddingly feel to it. Attachment: bro.jpg (33.43Kb) 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

johnno42000

07 Sep 19 4.51pm

I see BJ may defy the law and could end up inside. Apart from his time at Eton preparing him for this, 'trousers down, todgers out', I wonder if he could get a cell with Charles Bronson as his cell mate? Bronson and Johnson has a nice weddingly feel to it.

Attachment: bro.jpg (33.43Kb)

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

Stirlingsays 07 Sep 19 5.18pm
Originally posted by johnno42000 I see BJ may defy the law and could end up inside. Apart from his time at Eton preparing him for this, 'trousers down, todgers out', I wonder if he could get a cell with Charles Bronson as his cell mate? Bronson and Johnson has a nice weddingly feel to it. Charles Bronson gay? From the 'love that dare not speak its name'. To the love that 'can't frigging shut up'. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

07 Sep 19 5.18pm

Originally posted by johnno42000

Charles Bronson gay?

From the 'love that dare not speak its name'.

To the love that 'can't frigging shut up'.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

johnno42000 07 Sep 19 5.36pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Charles Bronson gay? From the 'love that dare not speak its name'. To the love that 'can't frigging shut up'. I think the amount of time he has spent inside it's a case of any port in a storm 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

johnno42000

07 Sep 19 5.36pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Charles Bronson gay?

From the 'love that dare not speak its name'.

To the love that 'can't frigging shut up'.

I think the amount of time he has spent inside it's a case of any port in a storm

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

cryrst The garden of England 07 Sep 19 5.43pm
Originally posted by johnno42000 I see BJ may defy the law and could end up inside. Apart from his time at Eton preparing him for this, 'trousers down, todgers out', I wonder if he could get a cell with Charles Bronson as his cell mate? Bronson and Johnson has a nice weddingly feel to it. That is seriously taking one for the team. Doing bird because of your political principle. Corbyn has been in a dark place before. I will leave that to your imagination.

cryrst

The garden of England 07 Sep 19 5.43pm

Originally posted by johnno42000

That is seriously taking one for the team.
Doing bird because of your political principle.
Corbyn has been in a dark place before.
I will leave that to your imagination.

Mapletree Croydon 07 Sep 19 6.29pm
Originally posted by cryrst That is seriously taking one for the team. Doing bird because of your political principle. Corbyn has been in a dark place before. I will leave that to your imagination. We're all the same on the inside Edited by Mapletree (07 Sep 2019 6.29pm)

Mapletree

Croydon 07 Sep 19 6.29pm

Originally posted by cryrst

That is seriously taking one for the team.
Doing bird because of your political principle.
Corbyn has been in a dark place before.
I will leave that to your imagination.

We're all the same on the inside

Edited by Mapletree (07 Sep 2019 6.29pm)

johnno42000 07 Sep 19 7.14pm
Originally posted by cryrst That is seriously taking one for the team. Doing bird because of your political principle. Corbyn has been in a dark place before. I will leave that to your imagination. That was purely force of 'Abbott 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

johnno42000

07 Sep 19 7.14pm

Originally posted by cryrst

That is seriously taking one for the team.
Doing bird because of your political principle.
Corbyn has been in a dark place before.
I will leave that to your imagination.

That was purely force of 'Abbott

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

dynamicdick Dormansland 07 Sep 19 9.01pm
Originally posted by johnno42000 I see BJ may defy the law and could end up inside. Apart from his time at Eton preparing him for this, 'trousers down, todgers out', I wonder if he could get a cell with Charles Bronson as his cell mate? Bronson and Johnson has a nice weddingly feel to it. That law shouldn’t have been made in the first place. Bring back Brolin

dynamicdick

Dormansland 07 Sep 19 9.01pm

Originally posted by johnno42000

That law shouldn’t have been made in the first place.

Bring back Brolin

Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 07 Sep 19 9.26pm
[Link] Another one bites the dust. No resilience or stomach for the fight. Good riddance. Pro USA & Israel

Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 07 Sep 19 9.26pm

[Link]

Another one bites the dust. No resilience or stomach for the fight. Good riddance.

Pro USA & Israel

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 9.34pm
Originally posted by Willo With the utmost respect, Parliament is not expressing the will of the people when the majority voted to leave the EU.A total of 17.4 million voted to leave the EU but MPs refuse to carry out their instruction. On that note I must leave now for a coffee with my Conservative 'Leave' chums !! I really regret having to say this yet again but voters don't give MPs "instructions". They vote in people to represent the constituency they happen to live in who then take decisions that they believe are in their collective best interests. That includes not just those who voted for them, but those who voted against them, those who did not vote and those who could not vote because they were too young. The latter's interests being particularly important. This idea that just because the Leave vote got a few more votes than Remain means that everyone else's interests must be disregarded needs to be erased really soon if we are ever going to make any progress. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 9.34pm

Originally posted by Willo

With the utmost respect, Parliament is not expressing the will of the people when the majority voted to leave the EU.A total of 17.4 million voted to leave the EU but MPs refuse to carry out their instruction.

On that note I must leave now for a coffee with my Conservative 'Leave' chums !!

I really regret having to say this yet again but voters don't give MPs "instructions". They vote in people to represent the constituency they happen to live in who then take decisions that they believe are in their collective best interests. That includes not just those who voted for them, but those who voted against them, those who did not vote and those who could not vote because they were too young. The latter's interests being particularly important.

This idea that just because the Leave vote got a few more votes than Remain means that everyone else's interests must be disregarded needs to be erased really soon if we are ever going to make any progress.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 9.46pm
Originally posted by the silurian is 17.4 million a small number in your world?? Johnson wasn't chosen to be PM by 17.4 million was he? He was chosen by 160,000 party members. They are the only people to have endorsed his strategy. How many of that 17.4 million still want to Leave is unknown but it won't be all of them. Just as how many who voted to Remain might now want to Leave. They probably balance out though. But what is certain is whilst no-one knows exactly how many want to leave without a deal you can be quite sure it isn't all of them. In fact I suspect it isn't even half of them. Add those who voted to Remain and you can be very confident that there is not a UK wide majority in favour of leaving without a deal. Therefore Johnson is not only acting against the wishes of Parliament he is acting against the very probable wishes of the people as a whole. As that is what Parliament has concluded that's why they have acted to restrain him. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 9.46pm

Originally posted by the silurian

is 17.4 million a small number in your world??

Johnson wasn't chosen to be PM by 17.4 million was he? He was chosen by 160,000 party members. They are the only people to have endorsed his strategy.

How many of that 17.4 million still want to Leave is unknown but it won't be all of them. Just as how many who voted to Remain might now want to Leave. They probably balance out though.

But what is certain is whilst no-one knows exactly how many want to leave without a deal you can be quite sure it isn't all of them. In fact I suspect it isn't even half of them.

Add those who voted to Remain and you can be very confident that there is not a UK wide majority in favour of leaving without a deal.

Therefore Johnson is not only acting against the wishes of Parliament he is acting against the very probable wishes of the people as a whole. As that is what Parliament has concluded that's why they have acted to restrain him.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 9.51pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Well they don’t do that in normal circumstances or we may as well go to PR. For routine issues party lines are maintained to ensure smooth governance. When matters of conscience arise a free vote is often permitted. PR is a much more equitable and sensible method of representative government than first past the post. I recognise that the prospect of continuous coalitions doesn't appeal to everyone but I prefer it. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 9.51pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Well they don’t do that in normal circumstances or we may as well go to PR.

For routine issues party lines are maintained to ensure smooth governance. When matters of conscience arise a free vote is often permitted.

PR is a much more equitable and sensible method of representative government than first past the post. I recognise that the prospect of continuous coalitions doesn't appeal to everyone but I prefer it.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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