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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 09 Sep 19 10.15am |
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Originally posted by cryrst
There is no evidence at all to back up your 'damage' line. There is no evidence at all to back up your claim that there is no evidence. Everyone, including those in the current government, understand that leaving without a deal is worse than leaving with one. The only difference is the degree of harm it would cause and how long it would last but most of the professionals believe the damage will be too great to willingly accept and must be avoided. Not just "if at all possible" but must. The hardliners believe the pain is worth taking because of the "freedom" it brings. Most others disagree.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 09 Sep 19 10.25am |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
Like Alistair Campbell did you mean Alistair Campbell was a spin doctor. He very effectively managed the news cycle and the media's access to the PM and other members of the cabinet. He polished the presentation of New Labour. He didn't hide in the background, devising devious plans specifically to try to thwart the will of Parliament and reduce the need for policy to be made by the Cabinet. He was less a puppet master and more a master of ceremonies.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Spiderman Horsham 09 Sep 19 10.26am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That was an off the cuff statement by one Minister. When push comes to shove wiser heads will prevail. The biggest problem isn't France, it's Hungary but even they won't want to be isolated. Hardly one
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| Midlands Eagle 09 Sep 19 10.29am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
It has long been said that a bad deal is worse than no deal and all we are likely to be offered are bad deals Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The only difference is the degree of harm it would cause and how long it would last but most of the professionals believe the damage will be too great to willingly accept and must be avoided. Not just "if at all possible" but must. It depends on how you define "professionals" I would have thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a professional and he seems happy enough that No Deal won't mean the end of all life as we know it
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| Spiderman Horsham 09 Sep 19 10.31am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Alistair Campbell was a spin doctor. He very effectively managed the news cycle and the media's access to the PM and other members of the cabinet. He polished the presentation of New Labour. He didn't hide in the background, devising devious plans specifically to try to thwart the will of Parliament and reduce the need for policy to be made by the Cabinet. He was less a puppet master and more a master of ceremonies. Talk us through his role in the dodgy dossier or do you think the Iraq war was legal and Iraq had weapons of mass destruction
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| Spiderman Horsham 09 Sep 19 10.33am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
It depends on how you define "professionals" I would have thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a professional and he seems happy enough that No Deal won't mean the end of all life as we know it Now come on ME you must know by now that only those who want to remain have any brains and common sense it has been intimated on here enough times
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| Badger11 Beckenham 09 Sep 19 10.34am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
The prima donnas running the EU might not want to negotiate after Brexit but the German motor manufacturers, French farmers and Spanish tourist industry will put pressure on the EU to come up with a trade deal as they won't want to lose their lucrative markets Just heard a press conference between Boris and Leo Varacker. A couple of interesting comments: Varacker said that even if we leave without a no deal we still need to continue to negotiate about the Irish border issue. So he is recognising that some form of negotiations will continue and presumably should they agree a solution to the border question post Brexit this may pave the way to a trade deal. Boris for his part was really strong on saying he wants a deal. "Failure to agree a deal is a failure of statesmanship". I think this is aimed at the waverers in his party who think he wants a no deal. Still all to play for.
One more point |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 09 Sep 19 10.35am |
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Originally posted by chris123
Surely the EU have made it clear that the deal can't be changed and Parliament has voted it down three times anyway. There is no other deal. As far as damage is concerned, many of us want the Government to crack on negotiating free trade deals with the rest of the world and no deal is far from damaging, it's enabling. They have, and for some very good reasons. We have objected, for some equally good reasons. So we have an impasse. When you have an impasse you just need to work harder to find a path around or through it. Both sides need to understand the other's problems and work together to overcome them. As no-one wants this dragging on and on any more than they don't want "no deal" then the motivation to do just that is obvious. There is a new team in Brussels on November 1st. Hopefully soon after that we will have a new team in the UK. Playing "who blinks first" with the country's future is no way for mature, experienced politicians to behave. It might appeal to the macho types who seem to think everything will be OK, just wait and see, but it is totally irresponsible.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 09 Sep 19 10.45am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
If we leave without a deal it doesn't mean that we stop negotiating if the EU is willing to listen. It may actually be easier to do a deal post Brexit. The EU has put down a red line over the Irish border and doesn't want to be seen backing down. The EU also does not want to be seen rewarding us. Once we leave without a deal the EU will be forced to deal with that Irish issue one way or another. At the moment the issues are theoretical and diputed post Brexit they will be reality. Whatever solution they come up with that will be the basis for any negotiation. Like most I would prefer a deal but if we leave without one I still think that at some point in the not too distant future we will end up with one that the EU and Parliament can live with. Politics is getting in the way of business. Post Brexit the EU politicians can claim they stood firm and didn't let the UK get away with it. The issues from both sides will known and I think common sense will prevail. If anyone thinks we will eventually secure a better deal by leaving on Oct 31st without one then they are nuts. All our leverage will have gone and the EU will not wish to encourage any other waiverers. On top of that the issues behind the "backstop" won't be solved without a deal, indeed they are likely to be made worse.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 09 Sep 19 11.01am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
If anyone thinks we will eventually secure a better deal by leaving on Oct 31st without one then they are nuts. All our leverage will have gone and the EU will not wish to encourage any other waiverers. On top of that the issues behind the "backstop" won't be solved without a deal, indeed they are likely to be made worse. All our leverage went when MPs voted to make No Deal illegal.....all negotiating power disappeared with that vote!
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| chris123 hove actually 09 Sep 19 11.11am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
They have, and for some very good reasons. We have objected, for some equally good reasons. So we have an impasse. When you have an impasse you just need to work harder to find a path around or through it. Both sides need to understand the other's problems and work together to overcome them. As no-one wants this dragging on and on any more than they don't want "no deal" then the motivation to do just that is obvious. There is a new team in Brussels on November 1st. Hopefully soon after that we will have a new team in the UK. Playing "who blinks first" with the country's future is no way for mature, experienced politicians to behave. It might appeal to the macho types who seem to think everything will be OK, just wait and see, but it is totally irresponsible. I'm not really talking about blinking - more doing what was mandated in the referendum and the 2017 manifesto, that no matter how hard Parliament tries to stymie, we leave.
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| DANGERCLOSE London 09 Sep 19 11.40am |
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[Tweet Link]
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| Midlands Eagle 09 Sep 19 11.41am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
If anyone thinks we will eventually secure a better deal by leaving on Oct 31st without one then they are nuts. All our leverage will have gone and the EU will not wish to encourage any other waiverers. Nonsense. We will have much more leverage or do you think that Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen will be happy with their cars having an extra 10% tariff imposed when their cars are imported into the country
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 09 Sep 19 11.57am |
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Originally posted by the silurian
All our leverage went when MPs voted to make No Deal illegal.....all negotiating power disappeared with that vote! If you think the EU was going to accept being bullied into accepting things it didn't want then you are seriously miscalculating how they think and act. They don't want "no deal" anymore than anyone else but there are things they want even less, and being seen to cave in to bullying tactics is certainly one of them. Allowing people to think this was a viable strategy is just window dressing. It never was, isn't now and that's well understood by most politicians. However, requiring the PM to seek an extension might, in a bizarre way, actually strengthen his chances of getting a little tweak or two to the already negotiated deal that would enable him to present it to Parliament and for it then to pass. Labour would oppose no matter what as they want an election, but it might just scrape over the line. I don't think the EU want this dragging on anymore either so by helping Johnson to get a deal done would help them too.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 09 Sep 19 12.00pm |
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Originally posted by DANGERCLOSE
[Tweet Link]We would never agree to that and as the EU cannot compel it either it would never happen. It's scaremongering nonsense.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 09 Sep 19 12.08pm |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
Nonsense. We will have much more leverage or do you think that Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen will be happy with their cars having an extra 10% tariff imposed when their cars are imported into the country That's of course true, but it's true whether we do a deal now or later. The point I was making was whether the EU would be more, or less, inclined to offer favourable terms if we left without a deal and caused everyone problems as a consequence. Right now our leverage on that is that we can ensure there is a peaceful, ordered transition. Later we don't have that but would have a legacy of causing headaches and a mess of paperwork and costs
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Mapletree Croydon 09 Sep 19 12.17pm |
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Originally posted by DANGERCLOSE
[Tweet Link]Well, doing a little research including Hansard I can't say James, nor Darren, appear particularly reliable in what they say. Please let me know from where this originates, presumably either a senior EU official of someone from the UK armed forces. Right at the moment this looks seriously suspect. I'm not saying you are gullible of course. Edited by Mapletree (09 Sep 2019 12.26pm)
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| Spiderman Horsham 09 Sep 19 12.38pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
We would never agree to that and as the EU cannot compel it either it would never happen. It's scaremongering nonsense. But didn't Cameron say it was never and will never be on the table? We may not have a choice
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