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Taking the knee (LOCKED)

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Spiderman Horsham 07 Dec 20 11.58am
Just been listening to Talksport (I know, sorry). They had Liam Rosenior on, he was extremely interesting. Basically said it should be taken as a symbol against all forms of discrimination but fully understands why it is being taken as supporting BLM. Jim White ( t***) couldn’t understand why fans can’t understand that. Well let me tell you Jim, when first introduced it WAS in support of BLM, haven’t we got people on here who took the knee for BLM? The fact they now are trying to make out it isn’t just doesn’t wash. Perhaps his Sky paymasters should stop having the BLM banner on the screen then! Booing at Colchester, Chairman threatening to ban those responsible, dangerous road to go down imo

Spiderman

Horsham 07 Dec 20 11.58am

Just been listening to Talksport (I know, sorry). They had Liam Rosenior on, he was extremely interesting. Basically said it should be taken as a symbol against all forms of discrimination but fully understands why it is being taken as supporting BLM.
Jim White ( t***) couldn’t understand why fans can’t understand that. Well let me tell you Jim, when first introduced it WAS in support of BLM, haven’t we got people on here who took the knee for BLM? The fact they now are trying to make out it isn’t just doesn’t wash. Perhaps his Sky paymasters should stop having the BLM banner on the screen then!
Booing at Colchester, Chairman threatening to ban those responsible, dangerous road to go down imo

cryrst The garden of England 07 Dec 20 11.59am
Darren lewis on the wireless said he doubts footballers understand that blm is partly political and are just doing it because hey think it's about anti racism. There are accountants teachers and all sorts of educations on those pitches. Troy deeney who himself is well educated either ignored it or was too afraid to pick him up on it. So now the excuse is footballers are thick!

cryrst

The garden of England 07 Dec 20 11.59am

Darren lewis on the wireless said he doubts footballers understand that blm is partly political and are just doing it because hey think it's about anti racism.
There are accountants teachers and all sorts of educations on those pitches.
Troy deeney who himself is well educated either ignored it or was too afraid to pick him up on it.
So now the excuse is footballers are thick!

Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 20 12.00pm
Originally posted by Badger11 It's certainly generated discussion but I think you are unfair on kick it out. - When was the last time you heard racist chanting at a football match in England? You get the occasional idiot both clubs condemn it the police investigate and they are nearly always caught, banned by the club and face criminal sanctions. - Teams are integrated around 30% are non white they are well paid and respected by fans. Yesterday our 5 goals were made and scored by black players I've not heard anyone complaining about that it simply doesn't happen at football now. - The sports media treat racism seriously unlike the rest of the world. Apart from the lack of black managers which is another whole topic* there are no barriers in football apart from talent, in fact football can be proud of itself. A lot of this can be down to Kick it out educating the public especially the younger generations. If players still feel there is a problem they should speak out with specifics and be prepared to engage and defend their position not try and shut down the debate. I don't believe racism is the reason why there are not many black managers. This. And there aren’t many British managers in the top flight either. COYP*

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 20 12.00pm

Originally posted by Badger11

It's certainly generated discussion but I think you are unfair on kick it out.

- When was the last time you heard racist chanting at a football match in England? You get the occasional idiot both clubs condemn it the police investigate and they are nearly always caught, banned by the club and face criminal sanctions.

- Teams are integrated around 30% are non white they are well paid and respected by fans. Yesterday our 5 goals were made and scored by black players I've not heard anyone complaining about that it simply doesn't happen at football now.

- The sports media treat racism seriously unlike the rest of the world.

Apart from the lack of black managers which is another whole topic* there are no barriers in football apart from talent, in fact football can be proud of itself.

A lot of this can be down to Kick it out educating the public especially the younger generations.

If players still feel there is a problem they should speak out with specifics and be prepared to engage and defend their position not try and shut down the debate.

*I don't believe racism is the reason why there are not many black managers.

This.

And there aren’t many British managers in the top flight either.

COYP

cryrst The garden of England 07 Dec 20 12.00pm
Originally posted by Spiderman Just been listening to Talksport (I know, sorry). They had Liam Rosenior on, he was extremely interesting. Basically said it should be taken as a symbol against all forms of discrimination but fully understands why it is being taken as supporting BLM. Jim White ( t***) couldn’t understand why fans can’t understand that. Well let me tell you Jim, when first introduced it WAS in support of BLM, haven’t we got people on here who took the knee for BLM? The fact they now are trying to make out it isn’t just doesn’t wash. Perhaps his Sky paymasters should stop having the BLM banner on the screen then! Booing at Colchester, Chairman threatening to ban those responsible, dangerous road to go down imo Wow. Prove they wernt booing the opposition players I say. Woke and afraid.

cryrst

The garden of England 07 Dec 20 12.00pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

Wow. Prove they wernt booing the opposition players I say. Woke and afraid.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.01pm
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle OK, because the difference matters. I am glad you agree. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.01pm

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

OK, because the difference matters.

I am glad you agree.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 20 12.01pm
Originally posted by Badger11 I would be better to stop virtue signalling at every game and do something practical if they are that bothered. Precisely. Convenience though innit. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 20 12.01pm

Originally posted by Badger11

I would be better to stop virtue signalling at every game and do something practical if they are that bothered.

Precisely. Convenience though innit.

COYP

Spiderman Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.03pm
Originally posted by DanH I don’t think it takes much indoctrination to realise that racism is bad. You don’t have to be a racist to believe that taking the knee is in support of BLM because it was. As others have said, use a different symbol/method to promote fight against ALL forms of discrimination, not that difficult. Funny how some media outlets seem to want to distance themselves from BLM now

Spiderman

Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.03pm

Originally posted by DanH

I don’t think it takes much indoctrination to realise that racism is bad.

You don’t have to be a racist to believe that taking the knee is in support of BLM because it was.
As others have said, use a different symbol/method to promote fight against ALL forms of discrimination, not that difficult. Funny how some media outlets seem to want to distance themselves from BLM now

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.03pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays The far left are the least qualified to talk about their opposites. Who said they were? The far left are every bit as distasteful as the far right. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.03pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The far left are the least qualified to talk about their opposites.

Who said they were?

The far left are every bit as distasteful as the far right.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Spiderman Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.07pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Jamie Vardy recently kicked down a corner flag that was being used to display the 'rainbow' flag during a goal celebration. It's subsequently been used in many dissident right memes and caused much myrth. It's obviously wasn't intentional however it exposures a problem in football at the moment. Its continual use for social and political messaging. Pretty much all corporations are pushing the same messages. If you have to bring your politics into football, have a badge on your shirt like the poppy situation and do your politics in your own time not with captive audiences. Football matches don't exist for your politics. I said the same thing about 'Tommy Robinson' chants last year. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Dec 2020 10.56am) I would wager that some on here who agree with taking the knee, also agreed with you about Tommy Robinson songs. I am firmly in the camp of, I go to football to get away from the trials and tribulations of everyday life, just like to immerse myself in the game. Heaven knows that is bad enough at times being a Palace fan

Spiderman

Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.07pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Jamie Vardy recently kicked down a corner flag that was being used to display the 'rainbow' flag during a goal celebration.

It's subsequently been used in many dissident right memes and caused much myrth.

It's obviously wasn't intentional however it exposures a problem in football at the moment. Its continual use for social and political messaging. Pretty much all corporations are pushing the same messages.

If you have to bring your politics into football, have a badge on your shirt like the poppy situation and do your politics in your own time not with captive audiences.

Football matches don't exist for your politics.

I said the same thing about 'Tommy Robinson' chants last year.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Dec 2020 10.56am)

I would wager that some on here who agree with taking the knee, also agreed with you about Tommy Robinson songs.
I am firmly in the camp of, I go to football to get away from the trials and tribulations of everyday life, just like to immerse myself in the game. Heaven knows that is bad enough at times being a Palace fan

The Dolphin 07 Dec 20 12.10pm
Good point well argued Spiderman!

The Dolphin

07 Dec 20 12.10pm

Good point well argued Spiderman!

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.14pm
Originally posted by The Dolphin It seems here that if we disagree with taking the knee before games then we are automatically racist in some posters eyes. I disagree with it so for those here who are shouting loudly am I a racist in your eyes? I am not aware of anyone who feels that those who disagree with "taking a knee" are necessarily racist as it depends on why they object. What's questioned is the attempted association with a political movement and the condemnation of that when no such association exists, along with the disrespect shown to the players themselves by booing a sincere gesture. If fans think the gesture has outrun its course there are better ways to communicate that as booing just leaves the impression of racist motivation. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.14pm

Originally posted by The Dolphin

It seems here that if we disagree with taking the knee before games then we are automatically racist in some posters eyes.
I disagree with it so for those here who are shouting loudly am I a racist in your eyes?

I am not aware of anyone who feels that those who disagree with "taking a knee" are necessarily racist as it depends on why they object.

What's questioned is the attempted association with a political movement and the condemnation of that when no such association exists, along with the disrespect shown to the players themselves by booing a sincere gesture. If fans think the gesture has outrun its course there are better ways to communicate that as booing just leaves the impression of racist motivation.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 07 Dec 20 12.15pm
Originally posted by Spiderman I would wager that some on here who agree with taking the knee, also agreed with you about Tommy Robinson songs. I am firmly in the camp of, I go to football to get away from the trials and tribulations of everyday life, just like to immerse myself in the game. Heaven knows that is bad enough at times being a Palace fan 100% agree with this. Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 07 Dec 20 12.15pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

100% agree with this.

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Spiderman Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.15pm
Originally posted by cryrst Darren lewis on the wireless said he doubts footballers understand that blm is partly political and are just doing it because hey think it's about anti racism. There are accountants teachers and all sorts of educations on those pitches. Troy deeney who himself is well educated either ignored it or was too afraid to pick him up on it. So now the excuse is footballers are thick! Interesting, so rather than the media telling fans they need to be educated, should the players also not be educated?

Spiderman

Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.15pm

Originally posted by cryrst

Interesting, so rather than the media telling fans they need to be educated, should the players also not be educated?

Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 07 Dec 20 12.16pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I am not aware of anyone who feels that those who disagree with "taking a knee" are necessarily racist as it depends on why they object. What's questioned is the attempted association with a political movement and the condemnation of that when no such association exists, along with the disrespect shown to the players themselves by booing a sincere gesture. If fans think the gesture has outrun its course there are better ways to communicate that as booing just leaves the impression of racist motivation. Only to thick people Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 07 Dec 20 12.16pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I am not aware of anyone who feels that those who disagree with "taking a knee" are necessarily racist as it depends on why they object.

What's questioned is the attempted association with a political movement and the condemnation of that when no such association exists, along with the disrespect shown to the players themselves by booing a sincere gesture. If fans think the gesture has outrun its course there are better ways to communicate that as booing just leaves the impression of racist motivation.

Only to thick people

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Hrolf The Ganger 07 Dec 20 12.17pm
Originally posted by DanH I don’t think it takes much indoctrination to realise that racism is bad. Again you display your simple mindedness. 'Racism' is just a word. In reality prejudice exists in all areas of life and from all parts of humanity. The idea that you alter the inevitability of prejudice toward a minority, black, White or any other colour, with such expressions is patently ridiculous. Human nature and human self interest dictates these things and that can never change. All we are seeing here is the promotion of an idea for profit. Those that believe in the sincerity or the value of it are fools. Tolerance of other cultures comes naturally with exposure and mutual benefit. There is no quick fix. With the rate and endless nature of immigration to this country, I wouldn't hold your breath for the idealised world you crave.

Hrolf The Ganger

07 Dec 20 12.17pm

Originally posted by DanH

I don’t think it takes much indoctrination to realise that racism is bad.

Again you display your simple mindedness.

'Racism' is just a word. In reality prejudice exists in all areas of life and from all parts of humanity.

The idea that you alter the inevitability of prejudice toward a minority, black, White or any other colour, with such expressions is patently ridiculous.
Human nature and human self interest dictates these things and that can never change. All we are seeing here is the promotion of an idea for profit. Those that believe in the sincerity or the value of it are fools.

Tolerance of other cultures comes naturally with exposure and mutual benefit. There is no quick fix. With the rate and endless nature of immigration to this country, I wouldn't hold your breath for the idealised world you crave.

DanH SW2 07 Dec 20 12.18pm
Originally posted by Spiderman I would wager that some on here who agree with taking the knee, also agreed with you about Tommy Robinson songs. I am firmly in the camp of, I go to football to get away from the trials and tribulations of everyday life, just like to immerse myself in the game. Heaven knows that is bad enough at times being a Palace fan That's all well and good but there have been numerous instances of racial abuse, both at the game and online. Wilf has received endless abuse and has been public in sharing it to see exactly what he has to put up with. Why should they have to not make a stand just because you don't like to see politics in football? The cause is unfortunately as valid as ever. I am sure Wilf dislikes the racist abuse he gets more than you dislike seeing him take a knee for a few seconds before a game.

DanH

SW2 07 Dec 20 12.18pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

That's all well and good but there have been numerous instances of racial abuse, both at the game and online. Wilf has received endless abuse and has been public in sharing it to see exactly what he has to put up with.

Why should they have to not make a stand just because you don't like to see politics in football? The cause is unfortunately as valid as ever.

I am sure Wilf dislikes the racist abuse he gets more than you dislike seeing him take a knee for a few seconds before a game.

Spiderman Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.19pm
Originally posted by Badger11 It's certainly generated discussion but I think you are unfair on kick it out. - When was the last time you heard racist chanting at a football match in England? You get the occasional idiot both clubs condemn it the police investigate and they are nearly always caught, banned by the club and face criminal sanctions. - Teams are integrated around 30% are non white they are well paid and respected by fans. Yesterday our 5 goals were made and scored by black players I've not heard anyone complaining about that it simply doesn't happen at football now. - The sports media treat racism seriously unlike the rest of the world. Apart from the lack of black managers which is another whole topic* there are no barriers in football apart from talent, in fact football can be proud of itself. A lot of this can be down to Kick it out educating the public especially the younger generations. If players still feel there is a problem they should speak out with specifics and be prepared to engage and defend their position not try and shut down the debate. *I don't believe racism is the reason why there are not many black managers. Spot on

Spiderman

Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.19pm

Originally posted by Badger11

It's certainly generated discussion but I think you are unfair on kick it out.

- The sports media treat racism seriously unlike the rest of the world.

Apart from the lack of black managers which is another whole topic* there are no barriers in football apart from talent, in fact football can be proud of itself.

A lot of this can be down to Kick it out educating the public especially the younger generations.

If players still feel there is a problem they should speak out with specifics and be prepared to engage and defend their position not try and shut down the debate.

*I don't believe racism is the reason why there are not many black managers.

Spot on

Badger11 Beckenham 07 Dec 20 12.19pm
Originally posted by Spiderman I would wager that some on here who agree with taking the knee, also agreed with you about Tommy Robinson songs. I am firmly in the camp of, I go to football to get away from the trials and tribulations of everyday life, just like to immerse myself in the game. Heaven knows that is bad enough at times being a Palace fan Exactly. Football began as a diversion from work. Working class men with very little money who did awful dirty jobs like coal mining or factory work had the opportunity one afternoon a week to let off steam and not have to worry about that bar steward boss. You went to football to get away from your troubles not to be lectured on your behaviour. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 07 Dec 20 12.19pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

Exactly. Football began as a diversion from work.

Working class men with very little money who did awful dirty jobs like coal mining or factory work had the opportunity one afternoon a week to let off steam and not have to worry about that bar steward boss.

You went to football to get away from your troubles not to be lectured on your behaviour.

One more point

Spiderman Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.22pm
Originally posted by DanH True, but I choose to largely ignore your posts rather than actively boo them. For someone who largely ignores his posts, you seem to respond a lot

Spiderman

Horsham 07 Dec 20 12.22pm

Originally posted by DanH

True, but I choose to largely ignore your posts rather than actively boo them.

For someone who largely ignores his posts, you seem to respond a lot

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.24pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC The best solution I can think of is getting rid of taking the knee - as it's literally nothing to do with us. Then we could change 'kick it out' to something far less catchy like 'zero tolerance for racism in football'. Any racism = ban. Not just made up racism because someone didn't kneel. I think most of us wouldn't mind about that. I don't really want racists chanting at football - nor does anyone. The reason they "took the knee" was solely to demonstrate solidarity with the movement started in the USA which had become a universally recognised symbol. As the Premiership gets shown all over the world the players weren't aiming their gesture at a small bunch of supporters on a South London web forum but a huge worldwide audience, including many in the USA, Africa and Asia. We might well recognise something else better and have more sympathy with it, but would it have the same impact? For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 20 12.24pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

The best solution I can think of is getting rid of taking the knee - as it's literally nothing to do with us. Then we could change 'kick it out' to something far less catchy like 'zero tolerance for racism in football'. Any racism = ban. Not just made up racism because someone didn't kneel. I think most of us wouldn't mind about that. I don't really want racists chanting at football - nor does anyone.

The reason they "took the knee" was solely to demonstrate solidarity with the movement started in the USA which had become a universally recognised symbol. As the Premiership gets shown all over the world the players weren't aiming their gesture at a small bunch of supporters on a South London web forum but a huge worldwide audience, including many in the USA, Africa and Asia.

We might well recognise something else better and have more sympathy with it, but would it have the same impact?

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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