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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.22pm
Originally posted by Dannyh.V2 Not if Boris has got another EU country to Block the extension to Article 50. Meaning we would leave on the 31/10/2019 with No deal. He seems pretty clear about that in all his TV Guff, there must be something to it or professional suicide has been committed, my bet is he will apply for an extension, and one Nation will Vito it. If he is still the PM, which is a big if, then I agree he might try, the likely candidate being Hungary. However, just imagine what might happen after that. The pressure put by the other 26 on Hungary would be intense and the consequences of them not falling into line could be severe for them. Should it succeed what would happen? There would be a period of "no deal" but also a vote of no confidence followed by a GE. Could he win that then, with the reality of a "no deal" being felt? If he didn't win the GE then a new government could try to suspend the "no deal" by reapplying and starting the negotiations again. Much more likely in my view that he would try to avoid such a scenario and allow the extension to happen, blaming the EU, Parliament and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for causing the "people" all this trouble. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.22pm

Originally posted by Dannyh.V2

Not if Boris has got another EU country to Block the extension to Article 50. Meaning we would leave on the 31/10/2019 with No deal.

He seems pretty clear about that in all his TV Guff, there must be something to it or professional suicide has been committed, my bet is he will apply for an extension, and one Nation will Vito it.

If he is still the PM, which is a big if, then I agree he might try, the likely candidate being Hungary. However, just imagine what might happen after that. The pressure put by the other 26 on Hungary would be intense and the consequences of them not falling into line could be severe for them.

Should it succeed what would happen? There would be a period of "no deal" but also a vote of no confidence followed by a GE. Could he win that then, with the reality of a "no deal" being felt? If he didn't win the GE then a new government could try to suspend the "no deal" by reapplying and starting the negotiations again.

Much more likely in my view that he would try to avoid such a scenario and allow the extension to happen, blaming the EU, Parliament and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for causing the "people" all this trouble.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.25pm
Originally posted by W12 Remove all EU law, dissolve the union with Scotland, introduce a points based immigration system (capped at say 30,000 max) and watch our NHS collapse. Edited for accuracy. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.25pm

Originally posted by W12

Remove all EU law, dissolve the union with Scotland, introduce a points based immigration system (capped at say 30,000 max) and watch our NHS collapse.

Edited for accuracy.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.37pm
Originally posted by cryrst And the grass may well be greener. No one can predict accurately the future whether we are in or out. Who's to say in a couple of years a majority realise it was a good move. No more liggers getting a free meal metaphorically. We now are leaving, for some reason the eu dont want a deal so that shows what type of club we are in. You are very fond of dismissing all forecasts as useless, thus claiming that what you think ought to be done should be done. No forecast is ever going to be 100% accurate, except by luck. All they can ever do is show the probabilities and direction of travel. However when almost all of them point one way then it's a safe assumption that we are going to end up somewhere down that path and not in the opposite direction. If you are determining policy then you ought not ignore the strong indicators of what any course of action is likely to result in. The EU DO want a deal. They know as well as almost everyone here, except the wilfully blind, that leaving without one hurts everyone. What the EU cannot do, and have been absolutely clear and consistent about, is to change where their limits are. They have given us a framework to work within. We are failing to respect that. For a long time the mantra from the "no deal" advocates was that it had to be left on the table. That's all the EU are doing. They don't want it but if we insist then that's what we will get. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.37pm

Originally posted by cryrst

And the grass may well be greener.
No one can predict accurately the future whether we are in or out.
Who's to say in a couple of years a majority realise it was a good move.
No more liggers getting a free meal metaphorically.
We now are leaving, for some reason the eu dont want a deal so that shows what type of club we are in.

You are very fond of dismissing all forecasts as useless, thus claiming that what you think ought to be done should be done.

No forecast is ever going to be 100% accurate, except by luck. All they can ever do is show the probabilities and direction of travel.

However when almost all of them point one way then it's a safe assumption that we are going to end up somewhere down that path and not in the opposite direction.

If you are determining policy then you ought not ignore the strong indicators of what any course of action is likely to result in.

The EU DO want a deal. They know as well as almost everyone here, except the wilfully blind, that leaving without one hurts everyone.

What the EU cannot do, and have been absolutely clear and consistent about, is to change where their limits are. They have given us a framework to work within. We are failing to respect that.

For a long time the mantra from the "no deal" advocates was that it had to be left on the table. That's all the EU are doing. They don't want it but if we insist then that's what we will get.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Hrolf The Ganger 08 Oct 19 2.47pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Edited for accuracy. Yeah, our immigration policy is going great. More people getting stabbed in a day than in a year in my youth. And let's not get started on the epidemic of organised crime. But hey, the NHS. Let's stick to the globalist line.

Hrolf The Ganger

08 Oct 19 2.47pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Edited for accuracy.

Yeah, our immigration policy is going great.

More people getting stabbed in a day than in a year in my youth. And let's not get started on the epidemic of organised crime.

But hey, the NHS. Let's stick to the globalist line.

W12 08 Oct 19 2.47pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 BBC Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said EU negotiators were "so nonplussed by the proposal they asked if it was a mistake". Also we should all desist from saying 'once brexit is over' as 1st November if we exit it is only the start of brexit. When things actually happen. Forecasts of doubling our debt next year whatever the option taken, from the IFS, that would make the deficit reduction of the last few years redundant. Borrow and spend our way through brexit that is what is in store for us. 'debt levels not seen since the 1960's' We had very high debt levels in the 1960's as we were paying back for our last effort to leave Europe (1939-1945). We had pretty much payed all this back by the 1970's when Blair turned up (and Cameron never addressed) and now we are paying £40bn per year just to service the debt caused by mass immigration and maintaining a huge social care system.

W12 08 Oct 19 2.47pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

BBC Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said EU negotiators were "so nonplussed by the proposal they asked if it was a mistake".

Also we should all desist from saying 'once brexit is over' as 1st November if we exit it is only the start of brexit.

When things actually happen.

Forecasts of doubling our debt next year whatever the option taken, from the IFS, that would make the deficit reduction of the last few years redundant.

Borrow and spend our way through brexit that is what is in store for us.

'debt levels not seen since the 1960's'

We had very high debt levels in the 1960's as we were paying back for our last effort to leave Europe (1939-1945).

We had pretty much payed all this back by the 1970's when Blair turned up (and Cameron never addressed) and now we are paying £40bn per year just to service the debt caused by mass immigration and maintaining a huge social care system.

Midlands Eagle 08 Oct 19 3.22pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Yeah, our immigration policy is going great. More people getting stabbed in a day than in a year in my youth. And let's not get started on the epidemic of organised crime. But hey, the NHS. Let's stick to the globalist line. Teacher doesn't know what he's on about as most of the immigrants working in the NHS are either from the Indian sub continent or are Filipinos so a hard Brexit won't affect NHS recruitment at all

Midlands Eagle

08 Oct 19 3.22pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Yeah, our immigration policy is going great.

More people getting stabbed in a day than in a year in my youth. And let's not get started on the epidemic of organised crime.

But hey, the NHS. Let's stick to the globalist line.

Teacher doesn't know what he's on about as most of the immigrants working in the NHS are either from the Indian sub continent or are Filipinos so a hard Brexit won't affect NHS recruitment at all

Hrolf The Ganger 08 Oct 19 3.41pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle Teacher doesn't know what he's on about as most of the immigrants working in the NHS are either from the Indian sub continent or are Filipinos so a hard Brexit won't affect NHS recruitment at all Indeed. Oddly enough, most are not so worried about the tiny proportion of scalpel and bedpan wielding type of immigrant anyway. More the steal your mobile phone, turn the street into a war zone, sell your kids crack kind. There seems to be an ever inreasing amount of those. Sadly, leaving the EU will not fix the catastrophic immigration policy decisions of the past.

Hrolf The Ganger

08 Oct 19 3.41pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Teacher doesn't know what he's on about as most of the immigrants working in the NHS are either from the Indian sub continent or are Filipinos so a hard Brexit won't affect NHS recruitment at all

Indeed.

Oddly enough, most are not so worried about the tiny proportion of scalpel and bedpan wielding type of immigrant anyway. More the steal your mobile phone, turn the street into a war zone, sell your kids crack kind.
There seems to be an ever inreasing amount of those.

Sadly, leaving the EU will not fix the catastrophic immigration policy decisions of the past.

robdave2k 08 Oct 19 4.00pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Of course not everyone who voted to leave can be labelled as "hard right". Many are just ordinary folk, who normally vote either Tory or Labour who were sold the "grass is greener" package. What I said, and what I mean, is that the perception that I got from the comments here was that many of the posts being made reflected a hard right position, particularly those from a small number of regular contributors. Which isn't so surprising as activists tend to hold strong views. Those "ordinary folk" are probably too busy working, shopping, looking after the kids and watching Coronation St to be posting here. This thread is not a reflection of the views of the average man or woman. So you essentially concede that you are an activist yourself or indeed an average voter? in which case there is no point trying to reason. I don't have strong feelings about Brexit one way or another - I voted out and it's been a total mess. However as much as I cringe at voting the same way as some the extreme right wing, the patronising coming from the Remain camp is the same. The backhanded- "i'm sure you are normal folk but you just aren't as smart as I am" If you don't deliver Brexit then you are effectively killing Democracy. Taking your profile at face value, you are from Wisbech and now live in Truro. You're 75 years old. Now as a 38 year old who grew up in a council town, I don't appreciate being told continually that I was sold a package or that I'm not intelligent enough to know what I voted for. Frankly you come across as patronising. Everyone in their life is at different stages, and people vote based on personal perceptions and personal prejudices. Someone who goes on wine tours of France for example may vote in, whereas a factory worker in Yorkshire will vote out. It doesn't mean either side is wrong. The reality is that I was not sold a package by Remain, when I should have been. I should have been their ideal voter - 38 years old, Self Employed Professional. I think managed immigration is a good thing. What sealed voting out for me was visiting Greece and seeing a country that was unable to set it's own economic policy as it was tied to the Euro. Two days before I was in Montenegro - outside the Euro and able to attract an inflow of tourists/investment. The EU has undoubtedly done some good, but it is also full of corruption. Politicians have lost the ability to engage with the man on the street. All of this is a total mess, but the fault lies on all sides and every politician is generally out for their own ends.

robdave2k

08 Oct 19 4.00pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Of course not everyone who voted to leave can be labelled as "hard right". Many are just ordinary folk, who normally vote either Tory or Labour who were sold the "grass is greener" package.

What I said, and what I mean, is that the perception that I got from the comments here was that many of the posts being made reflected a hard right position, particularly those from a small number of regular contributors. Which isn't so surprising as activists tend to hold strong views. Those "ordinary folk" are probably too busy working, shopping, looking after the kids and watching Coronation St to be posting here.

This thread is not a reflection of the views of the average man or woman.

So you essentially concede that you are an activist yourself or indeed an average voter? in which case there is no point trying to reason.

I don't have strong feelings about Brexit one way or another - I voted out and it's been a total mess. However as much as I cringe at voting the same way as some the extreme right wing, the patronising coming from the Remain camp is the same. The backhanded- "i'm sure you are normal folk but you just aren't as smart as I am"

If you don't deliver Brexit then you are effectively killing Democracy.

Taking your profile at face value, you are from Wisbech and now live in Truro. You're 75 years old. Now as a 38 year old who grew up in a council town, I don't appreciate being told continually that I was sold a package or that I'm not intelligent enough to know what I voted for. Frankly you come across as patronising.

Everyone in their life is at different stages, and people vote based on personal perceptions and personal prejudices. Someone who goes on wine tours of France for example may vote in, whereas a factory worker in Yorkshire will vote out. It doesn't mean either side is wrong. The reality is that I was not sold a package by Remain, when I should have been. I should have been their ideal voter - 38 years old, Self Employed Professional. I think managed immigration is a good thing.

What sealed voting out for me was visiting Greece and seeing a country that was unable to set it's own economic policy as it was tied to the Euro. Two days before I was in Montenegro - outside the Euro and able to attract an inflow of tourists/investment. The EU has undoubtedly done some good, but it is also full of corruption. Politicians have lost the ability to engage with the man on the street.

All of this is a total mess, but the fault lies on all sides and every politician is generally out for their own ends.

SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 08 Oct 19 4.34pm
Originally posted by Matov All well and good but still struggling to see how outside of the initial issues it impacts that negatively? Both the people running Dover and Calais say they are ready and that No Deal will not make any noticeable difference. Ditto with air-travel. With regards to the Irish border, 85% of their exports cross over, less than 0.5% of ours goes the other way. If the EU want to play silly buggers who gets hurt the most? Once we leave the UK can react quicker and faster than the EU to any change in economic circumstances and there is a lot of built-up investment waiting. What it requires is clarification rather then us remaining. One of the main reasons Germany have been so keen on us remaining is because of our pro-business stance. Commercially the UK will present the EU with a genuine head-ache should we leave without no deal and have to scrap it out. Now, of course, we all relish a lovely helping of schadenfreude but the truth is we need to have this ended. And that only comes about when we leave. OK. Seeing as you clearly don't have a broad and balanced picture of the situation, I'll start with this one. Data flow. And more specifically, Data Adequacy. In the event of no-deal, it is entirely up to the EU whether they immediately grant us data adequacy parity. In the past, this process has taken between 18 months and five years. Less of a problem with a transition phase when leaving with a deal. The more this faux confrontational rhetoric increases, the less inclined the EU will be to make concessions to the UK. This being a pretty big one. IT specialist? Here's a quote. 'IT directors think that it won’t be an issue because they already comply with GDPR. Their faces drop as soon as they understand the potential legal implications this could have.' Either way, if the EU deliberate on this, it will cause significant issues for most medium to small businesses straightaway. Larger corporations have both the budget and resource to try to solve it quickly, and more importantly pay out to adequately prepare. That is just one area of many that doesn't fit neatly into your three point 'It's all in hand bruv' box. Next up, manufacturing and the automotive industry. Do some balanced reading. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 08 Oct 19 4.34pm

Originally posted by Matov

All well and good but still struggling to see how outside of the initial issues it impacts that negatively?

Both the people running Dover and Calais say they are ready and that No Deal will not make any noticeable difference. Ditto with air-travel.

With regards to the Irish border, 85% of their exports cross over, less than 0.5% of ours goes the other way. If the EU want to play silly buggers who gets hurt the most?

Once we leave the UK can react quicker and faster than the EU to any change in economic circumstances and there is a lot of built-up investment waiting. What it requires is clarification rather then us remaining. One of the main reasons Germany have been so keen on us remaining is because of our pro-business stance. Commercially the UK will present the EU with a genuine head-ache should we leave without no deal and have to scrap it out.

Now, of course, we all relish a lovely helping of schadenfreude but the truth is we need to have this ended.

And that only comes about when we leave.

OK. Seeing as you clearly don't have a broad and balanced picture of the situation, I'll start with this one.

Data flow. And more specifically, Data Adequacy. In the event of no-deal, it is entirely up to the EU whether they immediately grant us data adequacy parity. In the past, this process has taken between 18 months and five years. Less of a problem with a transition phase when leaving with a deal.

The more this faux confrontational rhetoric increases, the less inclined the EU will be to make concessions to the UK. This being a pretty big one. IT specialist? Here's a quote.

'IT directors think that it won’t be an issue because they already comply with GDPR. Their faces drop as soon as they understand the potential legal implications this could have.'

Either way, if the EU deliberate on this, it will cause significant issues for most medium to small businesses straightaway. Larger corporations have both the budget and resource to try to solve it quickly, and more importantly pay out to adequately prepare.

That is just one area of many that doesn't fit neatly into your three point 'It's all in hand bruv' box. Next up, manufacturing and the automotive industry. Do some balanced reading.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 4.59pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle Teacher doesn't know what he's on about as most of the immigrants working in the NHS are either from the Indian sub continent or are Filipinos so a hard Brexit won't affect NHS recruitment at all Read what the guy wrote! He was recommending we limit our immigration to 30,000 on a points based system. Nothing at all with whether they come from the EU, the Indian sub continent, Philippines or outer Mongolia. A total limit! For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 4.59pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Teacher doesn't know what he's on about as most of the immigrants working in the NHS are either from the Indian sub continent or are Filipinos so a hard Brexit won't affect NHS recruitment at all

Read what the guy wrote!

He was recommending we limit our immigration to 30,000 on a points based system. Nothing at all with whether they come from the EU, the Indian sub continent, Philippines or outer Mongolia. A total limit!

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 5.09pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Yeah, our immigration policy is going great. More people getting stabbed in a day than in a year in my youth. And let's not get started on the epidemic of organised crime. But hey, the NHS. Let's stick to the globalist line. There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking. The rising knife crime is awful but from the analysis I saw a day or two ago is thought, by those who have to handle the outcomes and try to understand it, to be much more to do with social conditions, poor parenting and a lack of suitable resources than anything else. Blaming immigration is just a cop out. Most of those involved, so far as I am aware, were born in the UK. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 5.09pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Yeah, our immigration policy is going great.

More people getting stabbed in a day than in a year in my youth. And let's not get started on the epidemic of organised crime.

But hey, the NHS. Let's stick to the globalist line.

There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking.

The rising knife crime is awful but from the analysis I saw a day or two ago is thought, by those who have to handle the outcomes and try to understand it, to be much more to do with social conditions, poor parenting and a lack of suitable resources than anything else.

Blaming immigration is just a cop out. Most of those involved, so far as I am aware, were born in the UK.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Hrolf The Ganger 08 Oct 19 5.14pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Of course not everyone who voted to leave can be labelled as "hard right". Many are just ordinary folk, who normally vote either Tory or Labour who were sold the "grass is greener" package. What I said, and what I mean, is that the perception that I got from the comments here was that many of the posts being made reflected a hard right position, particularly those from a small number of regular contributors. Which isn't so surprising as activists tend to hold strong views. Those "ordinary folk" are probably too busy working, shopping, looking after the kids and watching Coronation St to be posting here. This thread is not a reflection of the views of the average man or woman. So other people who post here regularly are 'activists' but you are just a regular guy? So the Leavers on this thread are unrepresentative and yet the majority voted to leave the EU. You talk total bollocks.

Hrolf The Ganger

08 Oct 19 5.14pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Of course not everyone who voted to leave can be labelled as "hard right". Many are just ordinary folk, who normally vote either Tory or Labour who were sold the "grass is greener" package.

What I said, and what I mean, is that the perception that I got from the comments here was that many of the posts being made reflected a hard right position, particularly those from a small number of regular contributors. Which isn't so surprising as activists tend to hold strong views. Those "ordinary folk" are probably too busy working, shopping, looking after the kids and watching Coronation St to be posting here.

This thread is not a reflection of the views of the average man or woman.

So other people who post here regularly are 'activists' but you are just a regular guy?

So the Leavers on this thread are unrepresentative and yet the majority voted to leave the EU.

You talk total bollocks.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 5.37pm
Originally posted by robdave2k So you essentially concede that you are an activist yourself or indeed an average voter? in which case there is no point trying to reason. Oh I am an "activist" all right, in that I don't sit passively and allow things I believe to be falsehoods to remain unchallenged. Am I average? Probably not. I don't have strong feelings about Brexit one way or another - I voted out and it's been a total mess. However as much as I cringe at voting the same way as some the extreme right wing, the patronising coming from the Remain camp is the same. The backhanded- "i'm sure you are normal folk but you just aren't as smart as I am" Contrary to popular belief here I have never claimed I am smarter than anyone else, or that anyone is stupid. Those ideas come only from others. You must ask them why they seem to believe that. I also see no patronising coming from anyone opposing the current government's approach, which isn't a "remain" camp at all. It is a no "no-deal" camp. The ultra Brexiteers just want a bogeyman as an enemy. If you don't deliver Brexit then you are effectively killing Democracy. That's just untrue. This is Parliamentary Democracy at it's finest. We have been around why many times, so if you really don't understand why please pm me. Taking your profile at face value, you are from Wisbech and now live in Truro. You're 75 years old. Now as a 38 year old who grew up in a council town, I don't appreciate being told continually that I was sold a package or that I'm not intelligent enough to know what I voted for. Frankly you come across as patronising. As I have never made any specific accusations about individuals I have no idea why you feel offended. People voted the way they did for a variety of reasons. My remarks are about the general situation which I have observed, which indicate that many folk bought into a false narrative from the Leave campaign. It is easy to understand why that was the case. Selling change is always easier than selling the status quo. What is sad is that such an important judgement was reduced to a marketing campaign. That is a criticism of the process and not of the people who were subjected to it. Everyone in their life is at different stages, and people vote based on personal perceptions and personal prejudices. Someone who goes on wine tours of France for example may vote in, whereas a factory worker in Yorkshire will vote out. It doesn't mean either side is wrong. The reality is that I was not sold a package by Remain, when I should have been. I should have been their ideal voter - 38 years old, Self Employed Professional. I think managed immigration is a good thing. As everyone I speak to thinks managed immigration is a good thing, however they voted, maybe that makes the point about the false narratives. What sealed voting out for me was visiting Greece and seeing a country that was unable to set it's own economic policy as it was tied to the Euro. Two days before I was in Montenegro - outside the Euro and able to attract an inflow of tourists/investment. The EU has undoubtedly done some good, but it is also full of corruption. Politicians have lost the ability to engage with the man on the street. Once again I have not spoken to anyone who thinks that the EU is perfect or not in need of reform. Whether that means we must leave completely, or stay and make it better was a judgement call. The question for me was always who should make that call? The electorate after a marketing campaign, or the paid representatives, our MPs, with their access to expert advice? All of this is a total mess, but the fault lies on all sides and every politician is generally out for their own ends. That it's a mess is undoubtedly true. The fault lies squarely with Cameron for risking our country's future to try to face down the ERG and UKIP on behalf of the Tory Party. Everything flowed from that. I am not so cynical about our politicians. Some maybe but far from them all. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 5.37pm

Originally posted by robdave2k

So you essentially concede that you are an activist yourself or indeed an average voter? in which case there is no point trying to reason.

Oh I am an "activist" all right, in that I don't sit passively and allow things I believe to be falsehoods to remain unchallenged. Am I average? Probably not.

Contrary to popular belief here I have never claimed I am smarter than anyone else, or that anyone is stupid. Those ideas come only from others. You must ask them why they seem to believe that. I also see no patronising coming from anyone opposing the current government's approach, which isn't a "remain" camp at all. It is a no "no-deal" camp. The ultra Brexiteers just want a bogeyman as an enemy.

If you don't deliver Brexit then you are effectively killing Democracy.

That's just untrue. This is Parliamentary Democracy at it's finest. We have been around why many times, so if you really don't understand why please pm me.

As I have never made any specific accusations about individuals I have no idea why you feel offended. People voted the way they did for a variety of reasons. My remarks are about the general situation which I have observed, which indicate that many folk bought into a false narrative from the Leave campaign. It is easy to understand why that was the case. Selling change is always easier than selling the status quo. What is sad is that such an important judgement was reduced to a marketing campaign. That is a criticism of the process and not of the people who were subjected to it.

As everyone I speak to thinks managed immigration is a good thing, however they voted, maybe that makes the point about the false narratives.

Once again I have not spoken to anyone who thinks that the EU is perfect or not in need of reform. Whether that means we must leave completely, or stay and make it better was a judgement call. The question for me was always who should make that call? The electorate after a marketing campaign, or the paid representatives, our MPs, with their access to expert advice?

All of this is a total mess, but the fault lies on all sides and every politician is generally out for their own ends.

That it's a mess is undoubtedly true. The fault lies squarely with Cameron for risking our country's future to try to face down the ERG and UKIP on behalf of the Tory Party. Everything flowed from that. I am not so cynical about our politicians. Some maybe but far from them all.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 5.53pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger So other people who post here regularly are 'activists' but you are just a regular guy? So the Leavers on this thread are unrepresentative and yet the majority voted to leave the EU. You talk total bollocks. I think you ought to read what I wrote again. I am as untypical as many, if not most, on here in that we all care passionately about this subject. Just from opposing positions. I have already covered why I think most (just) people voted to leave. On reflection I have come to think I am surprised the margin wasn't actually bigger, given the types and effectiveness of the two "campaigns". One was a slick, well prepared, relatively easy to understand set of promises of a new golden age. It was the equivalent of "Daz washes whiter" It was going to remove those nasty EU stains for ever, without ever mentioning that it might tear holes in the fabrics whilst doing so. The other was promising that as your current soap powder hadn't killed you yet why bother to change anything? That's no way to run a country. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 5.53pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

So other people who post here regularly are 'activists' but you are just a regular guy?

So the Leavers on this thread are unrepresentative and yet the majority voted to leave the EU.

You talk total bollocks.

I think you ought to read what I wrote again.

I am as untypical as many, if not most, on here in that we all care passionately about this subject. Just from opposing positions.

I have already covered why I think most (just) people voted to leave.

On reflection I have come to think I am surprised the margin wasn't actually bigger, given the types and effectiveness of the two "campaigns".

One was a slick, well prepared, relatively easy to understand set of promises of a new golden age. It was the equivalent of "Daz washes whiter" It was going to remove those nasty EU stains for ever, without ever mentioning that it might tear holes in the fabrics whilst doing so.

The other was promising that as your current soap powder hadn't killed you yet why bother to change anything?

That's no way to run a country.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Teddy Eagle 08 Oct 19 6.03pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking. The rising knife crime is awful but from the analysis I saw a day or two ago is thought, by those who have to handle the outcomes and try to understand it, to be much more to do with social conditions, poor parenting and a lack of suitable resources than anything else. Blaming immigration is just a cop out. Most of those involved, so far as I am aware, were born in the UK. You mean apart from the published data? Bad social conditions, poor parenting and a lack of suitable resources have existed for hundreds of years without people stabbing each other. Denying the facts is inherently racist since the majority of victims are from the same background.

Teddy Eagle

08 Oct 19 6.03pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking.

Blaming immigration is just a cop out. Most of those involved, so far as I am aware, were born in the UK.

You mean apart from the published data? Bad social conditions, poor parenting and a lack of suitable resources have existed for hundreds of years without people stabbing each other.
Denying the facts is inherently racist since the majority of victims are from the same background.

Hrolf The Ganger 08 Oct 19 6.19pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking. The rising knife crime is awful but from the analysis I saw a day or two ago is thought, by those who have to handle the outcomes and try to understand it, to be much more to do with social conditions, poor parenting and a lack of suitable resources than anything else. Blaming immigration is just a cop out. Most of those involved, so far as I am aware, were born in the UK. You are completely deluded. Conclusive proof. Your place of birth means nothing. It is culture that dictates. You are deliberately obtuse and mealy mouthed on every topic.

Hrolf The Ganger

08 Oct 19 6.19pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking.

Blaming immigration is just a cop out. Most of those involved, so far as I am aware, were born in the UK.

You are completely deluded. Conclusive proof.

Your place of birth means nothing. It is culture that dictates.

You are deliberately obtuse and mealy mouthed on every topic.

robdave2k 08 Oct 19 6.56pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I’m glad you have time to be an activist. Personally I’m busy working. Not that I’m probably intelligent enough to do that. You should read your posts back to yourself, as you really are patronising and incapable of seeing another point of view, which is exactly what you accuse every else of.

robdave2k

08 Oct 19 6.56pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I’m glad you have time to be an activist.

Personally I’m busy working. Not that I’m probably intelligent enough to do that.

You should read your posts back to yourself, as you really are patronising and incapable of seeing another point of view, which is exactly what you accuse every else of.

robdave2k 08 Oct 19 7.00pm
Originally posted by robdave2k I’m glad you have time to be an activist. Personally I’m busy working. Not that I’m probably intelligent enough to do that. You should read your posts back to yourself, as you really are patronising and incapable of seeing another point of view, which is exactly what you accuse every else of. Oh and I won’t be sending you a pm for you to “put me straight” But if I could have a lollipop and a pat on the head that would be great.

robdave2k

08 Oct 19 7.00pm

Originally posted by robdave2k

I’m glad you have time to be an activist.

Personally I’m busy working. Not that I’m probably intelligent enough to do that.

You should read your posts back to yourself, as you really are patronising and incapable of seeing another point of view, which is exactly what you accuse every else of.

Oh and I won’t be sending you a pm for you to “put me straight”

But if I could have a lollipop and a pat on the head that would be great.

Midlands Eagle 08 Oct 19 7.25pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking. I know that it is deemed politically correct nowadays to ignore the background of knife crime perpetrators and anyone that happens to point out that most of them are black is deemed a racist but only the most ignorant blind man would say that there is no link between knife crime and immigration

Midlands Eagle

08 Oct 19 7.25pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

There is no direct connection between our immigration policy and knife crime that I have ever seen established. That you seem to think there is says quite a lot about how you are thinking.

I know that it is deemed politically correct nowadays to ignore the background of knife crime perpetrators and anyone that happens to point out that most of them are black is deemed a racist but only the most ignorant blind man would say that there is no link between knife crime and immigration

jeeagles 08 Oct 19 7.32pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle I know that it is deemed politically correct nowadays to ignore the background of knife crime perpetrators and anyone that happens to point out that most of them are black is deemed a racist but only the most ignorant blind man would say that there is no link between knife crime and immigration The worst thing about this attitude is that its black children dying, and black children getting criminal records, and ultimately black children getting trapped in a circle of poverty. If you want to help people, shutting down any conversation does not help. But I dont think there is a link between immigration and knife crime (certainly not 1st generation immigration in the last 50 years) I think there is a link between knife crime and discifracised youths who are influenced by a gangster rap culture in the media and easily influenced by those around them telling them they are different and treated badly and authority is the problem..... strangely similar to how some of the white working classes from outside of london are told that the are treated badly and immigrants are the problem. Poverty is the root cause. Edited by jeeagles (08 Oct 2019 7.42pm)

jeeagles

08 Oct 19 7.32pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

The worst thing about this attitude is that its black children dying, and black children getting criminal records, and ultimately black children getting trapped in a circle of poverty.

If you want to help people, shutting down any conversation does not help.

But I dont think there is a link between immigration and knife crime (certainly not 1st generation immigration in the last 50 years) I think there is a link between knife crime and discifracised youths who are influenced by a gangster rap culture in the media and easily influenced by those around them telling them they are different and treated badly and authority is the problem..... strangely similar to how some of the white working classes from outside of london are told that the are treated badly and immigrants are the problem.

Poverty is the root cause.

Edited by jeeagles (08 Oct 2019 7.42pm)

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