Noting that 18% also state "terrorism" as their primary concern it's not beyond the realms to think that many of those would also state immigration as very high on their list (although obviously that view would be somehow racist).

You could also argue that the economic situation is exacerbated by mass immigration, it's making the debt mountain much bigger due to the huge cost of social care and climate change is certainly not being helped by moving huge numbers of people from a 3rd to first world carbon footprint. Then you are pretty much covering everything on that list.

But then again people will either deliberately or automatically conflate "blaming the immigrants" with "blaming immigration" and we go back to square one.

The thing that most people seem to be unaware of is the extent to which capitalism (even with all it's clear faults that need reforming) and the products and technology it has produced are dragging the world out of poverty. Very few seem to understand this hence the push for socialism in the west. Under socialism the whole world will suffer.

Yes, the article is a reach to be generous. But that's the problem, for left and right, with this idea that people simply value 'truth'. There isn't some big list of facts and truths and then that's it. There is a perspective, a vantage point. An environmentalist could reasonably come from an angle where that's 'the' pressing issue and much of what they centre on relates to that, from language to policy. Others, black and white, may come from an angle like that but with race, with that feeding their take on how society should be and what their priorities are. That is why some get drawn into very niche language usage and online cultures and news sites that are detached from the society they live in. We see it on here, and we see it with that laughable 'I'm sorry I was born white', nonsense by Rosanna Arquette.

Now America clearly is more racially polarised with attitudes on all sides and a particular history, so this article is more in fitting with that society. In the UK though, you're not laughing it up in a pub with mates talking about how you prefer your own race, or how white supremacy isn't real, or comparing it to the civil rights movement. These are attitudes out of sync with the vast majority of people. Detached self indulgent musings of the stay-at-home. And that's the key issue here. If people don't bother to have that linked-in reciprocal social aspect to their character, they may well in their droves drift from society and become susceptible to taking on half baked worldviews from cultures that aren't their own. Indeed contortions and caricatured views from those places, since as is typical with most media, much of what is presented is designed to nudge people in one direction or another. The actual allegiance to country can then play second fiddle to the sad yet satisfying reality of something you can buy into with no real push back due to the non conversational nature of how this content is absorbed. We see this process repeat across all hues, as well as religious and political outlooks.

HOL is rather tribal in its approach though, so it's well served to mollycoddle cliched and more full on political takes. In essence people make less balanced arguments now but are more excited by a tribal identity, the very nature of which involves elimination of various truths and nuances. The result is often more like a competition than a meaningful discussion.

Edited by dollardays (08 Aug 2019 11.29am)

America is a crazy place with more guns than people and killing becomes mundane, often barely making the news due to its frequency. Mass shootings are less common and so are the stand outs, but even they are becoming all too regular and unhinged types are inclined to repeat what they see is the new norm. With that in mind, and 400 million guns on the streets, it doesn't bode well.

I think trump is better positioned that almost any past President to possibly remove some of the assault rifle type guns from US streets, because he's not seen as having an adversarial relationship with gun owners. I wouldn't say any action would be a popular move as such, but there might be a little wiggle room to do something.

Yes, I do think we may enter a time where the stars align so to speak. Nature has a way of reclaiming and humbling and it may be that having this take, or that take all becomes an irrelevance due to pressing realities that supersede all of that in the moment.

I think the pace and urgency of environmental issues may surprise, and so it could be something we find ourselves in the middle of before we've made many and indeed any preparations.. so somewhat along the lines that you're said. Then we'll find ourselves in a new reality and will be bringing up generations with likely far more essential concerns.

It's a fallacy that capitalism requires weakened nation states in fact and globalism is ultimately antithetical to capitalism - it's just a shortcut to profit by moving work to cheaper locations or importing cheap labor. Globalism is just a short term fix - a resource race to the bottom.

Trump has a way to go (particularly with the national debt) but is starting to prove this. Globalism has actually hurt the US in the long term e.g. losing manufacturing jobs whilst having the huge hidden cost of immigration.

Where did I say, in this mini thread, that people "were twisting the truth"? They do, but it's not what I said. My comment was about the difference between addressing the post and not the poster. In simple terms, just for you, that you pay attention to the message and not the messenger.

I suspect I both get up earlier and go to bed later than most people. That's what having guests and an active dog who needs regular exercise does for you.

Alongside the several miles I walk with the dog every day I also play bowls, often more than game each day. As a game generally lasts 3 hours and involves a lot of walking I am pretty fit. Not just my fingers! It's just as well I can both think and type quickly or there wouldn't be time to fit it all in. Now, where's the lead!

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

More than 4 dead in a single episode is a mass shooting.
Irrelevant if its gangs or not.

I realise the "official" definition is that but........

If you define it that way you produce a distortion of the causes of the events which hit the headlines and are of the most concern to the majority of people.

It's the large scale events which attract the attention. Ones where automatic weapons are used in schools, churches, malls or nightclubs to mow people down indiscriminately.

Smaller events involving inter gang rivalries and domestic violence, whilst of great concern, cannot be considered in the same category. They have different causes and are committed by different people.

So we need to separate them to try to produce any meaningful solutions.

Large scale mass shootings in the USA are committed almost exclusively by white men.

By the way you will recall what Mark Twain said about "Lies, damn lies and statistics".

It seems quite appropriate given another comment!

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (08 Aug 2019 6.05pm)

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

The middle and working classes, those who truly drive any given economy, have been decimated for the past 30yrs or so pushing many closer to ''poverty'' despite all of the ''products and technology'' you mention.

Very few seem to understand that it's 'crony capitalism' and not solely 'capitalism'. There's a huge difference.

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