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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Badger11  Beckenham 14 Nov 19 9.51am |
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Originally posted by Matov
LOL. Like that would ever happen. The whole point of Labours supposed '2nd' referendum is that it would essentially be nothing more than us having to rubber stamp 'Remain' given that the only other option will be a horrendous Leave deal that they will not be backing anyway. Nothing more than an attempt to protect their own vanity about masquerading as democrats. Personally I welcome the likes of Tusk and co letting us know what they think. Because it works. Truly helps the Leave cause. When this entire s*** show is done and dusted I would love to be able to sit down with some ardent Remainers and ask them about their collective thought processes. Try and work out how they intended to persuade people who voted Leave in 2016 to change their minds by A: heaping insult upon insult upon them and B: how the intervention of the very people who drove over 17.4 million people to vote leave telling us all how silly we were helps anything? Remainers put great store in the fact that they are more likely to be University Graduates and so on yet their entire campaign to reverse the 2016 result has been so utterly s***e that you have to question just how intelligent they actually are. Thick as Pig s*** is my less than biased opinion but I am happy to be corrected. The sneering woke middle classes didn't have their wages cut by cheap foreign labour. I bet if they were told to take a massive pay cut due to cheap foreign labour they'd soon change their tune. Yes a lot of people who voted Brexit are not highly educated my mate is paid £100 a week less than 10 years ago. Do you wonder that they voted to leave when they are being undercut.
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| Deleted11 14 Nov 19 11.55am | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
The sneering woke middle classes didn't have their wages cut by cheap foreign labour. I bet if they were told to take a massive pay cut due to cheap foreign labour they'd soon change their tune. Yes a lot of people who voted Brexit are not highly educated my mate is paid £100 a week less than 10 years ago. Do you wonder that they voted to leave when they are being undercut. This is fundamentally the issue and the Tories have managed to do the best bait and switch to get the working class voting for them, even though it was inevitable that increased competition on labour, reducing the price of labour was the goal. And I'm not saying Labour are the solution always, but a step back needs to be made and a realisation that life isn't linear. If you vote Labour, at least Corbyn's Labour, you're going to get more workers rights, a higher union representation, increases in wages, but you will also get higher inflation, the unions having too much power. If you vote conservative, it's the opposite and the role of the electorate is to understand and realise when you need each one.
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| Stirlingsays 14 Nov 19 12.27pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
And another from the BBC a film review about the new Emilia Clarke Romcom written by my old mate Emma Thompson. I saw a long trailer for this at the cinema and groaned two pretty people, Christmas and George Michael songs talk about generic. What I didn't know is that Emma throws in some stuff about those awful racist Brexit people, they just can't leave it alone. In fairness to the BBC along with the puff they did include an alternate view. "Last Christmas is the worst festive film I have ever seen," wrote Dan Wootton in The Sun. "It's a woke, remoaning, overly politically correct mess of a movie that manages to suck every inch of fun, joy and togetherness out of the season where we should be jolly." Edited by Badger11 (14 Nov 2019 9.43am) I'll call you spot on. The 'woke' middle class and higher types who don't live with the realities of their ideologies yet look down on the working classes who do......they grind my gears like few others.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Badger11 Beckenham 14 Nov 19 12.32pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
This is fundamentally the issue and the Tories have managed to do the best bait and switch to get the working class voting for them, even though it was inevitable that increased competition on labour, reducing the price of labour was the goal. And I'm not saying Labour are the solution always, but a step back needs to be made and a realisation that life isn't linear. If you vote Labour, at least Corbyn's Labour, you're going to get more workers rights, a higher union representation, increases in wages, but you will also get higher inflation, the unions having too much power. If you vote conservative, it's the opposite and the role of the electorate is to understand and realise when you need each one. Not sure about that bit. I think Corbyn is sincere in wanting to hep the lower pay but all the while Labour have an open door immigration policy they are in conflict with each other. Basic supply and demand.
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| Deleted11 14 Nov 19 12.44pm | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Not sure about that bit. I think Corbyn is sincere in wanting to hep the lower pay but all the while Labour have an open door immigration policy they are in conflict with each other. Basic supply and demand. He wants to raise the minimum wage, but more importantly is if you have higher union representation then they negotiate on behalf of all employees. Makes sense. How many people aren't in unions that have to negotiate their pay, either don't do it or will accept less than what they want because they fear being sacked or treated differently? The main difference this time around is, i think, is that full employment is unlikely to be the goal. If you have a policy of full employment and high union power, that's when things get tricky. So, for me it's more about balance of power than anything else really.
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| W12 14 Nov 19 1.06pm | |
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Originally posted by Jway89
He wants to raise the minimum wage, but more importantly is if you have higher union representation then they negotiate on behalf of all employees. Makes sense. How many people aren't in unions that have to negotiate their pay, either don't do it or will accept less than what they want because they fear being sacked or treated differently? The main difference this time around is, i think, is that full employment is unlikely to be the goal. If you have a policy of full employment and high union power, that's when things get tricky. So, for me it's more about balance of power than anything else really. He wants to raise the minimum wage but further open borders. Can you see how this is going to further destroy opportunity in this country? (especially for the working classes)
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| Deleted11 14 Nov 19 1.22pm | |
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Originally posted by W12
He wants to raise the minimum wage but further open borders. Can you see how this is going to further destroy opportunity in this country? (especially for the working classes) To be honest, I don't think he even knows what he wants to do.
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| Stirlingsays 14 Nov 19 1.33pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
To be honest, I don't think he even knows what he wants to do. The neo liberal right have been in charge of the Tory party for generations. Since Thatcher moved the economy into more of a service industry than s manufacturing one....(which was common sense, if harshly implemented)...the Tories have used immigration labour for wage suppression and increased GDP via population growth. However, Tory immigration figures before Blair's new Labour were around 50,000 a year.....Blair enabled 300,000 a year and the Tories that came after him....did little to change it....they lied about it as much as Blair did. They both play the 'globalisation card' and pretend that it's inevitable rather than a political decision. It's the easy method for short term results....which is what drives a democratic politician. Long term it's a disaster.....immigrants get old too. We are twice as crowded as Germany and three times as crowded as France and we have automation coming. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2019 1.37pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Deleted11 14 Nov 19 1.37pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The neo liberal right have been in charge of the Tory party for generations. Since Thatcher moved the economy into more of a service industry than s manufacturing one....(which was common sense, if harshly implemented)...the Tories have used immigration labour for wage suppression and increased GDP via population growth. However, Tory immigration figures before Blair's new Labour were around 50,000 a year.....Blair enabled 300,000 a year and the Tories that came after him....did little to change it....they lied about it as much as Blair did. It's the easy method for short term results....which is what drives a democratic politician. Long term it's a disaster.....immigrants get old too. We are twice as crowded as Germany and three times as crowded as France and we have automation coming. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2019 1.35pm) So, who is there to vote for to change this? Hence, there's a reason it's a parliamentary democracy and not a direct one.
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| Stirlingsays 14 Nov 19 1.42pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
So, who is there to vote for to change this? Hence, there's a reason it's a parliamentary democracy and not a direct one. It's not going to change. Voting Tory, for a form of Brexit, is for a principle......Long term this country is completely fecked and they are all complicit. Since 2016 EU migration has fallen but it's still net...meaning more come than go....Non EU migration has risen...and that's because of the reasons I stated previously. It's the 'no brainer' method they use for short term results. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2019 1.47pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| W12 14 Nov 19 1.50pm | |
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Originally posted by Jway89
To be honest, I don't think he even knows what he wants to do. For Labour it's about getting more voters (along with allowing migrants and EU citizens to vote, reducing the voting age etc) they know it will work in their favour as immigrants will vote for more social care, free housing and benefits increases etc. That's a reality not a "right wing talking point" as you might be told by the BBC or the Guardian etc. The LibFems, SNP, Welsh, Greens etc are all socialists so go along with this. For the Tories it's about (1) driving down the cost of labor for their big business mates but perhaps more importantly (2) Artificially keeping property prices inflated through housing shortage as the whole economy currently depends on this. So basically, the whole lot need to go.
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| Deleted11 14 Nov 19 3.19pm | |
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Originally posted by W12
For Labour it's about getting more voters (along with allowing migrants and EU citizens to vote, reducing the voting age etc) they know it will work in their favour as immigrants will vote for more social care, free housing and benefits increases etc. That's a reality not a "right wing talking point" as you might be told by the BBC or the Guardian etc. The LibFems, SNP, Welsh, Greens etc are all socialists so go along with this. For the Tories it's about (1) driving down the cost of labor for their big business mates but perhaps more importantly (2) Artificially keeping property prices inflated through housing shortage as the whole economy currently depends on this. So basically, the whole lot need to go. To be honest, when you hear some of the arguments from Leave and Remain, it does make me wonder why the voting age isn't reduced to 4 years old. I do think there is stuff you can do to bring about a more cohesive society, but, when you frame political discourse as if you are in an Oxbridge debating club rather than looking at basic data and information, you, imo, destroy a decent democracy.
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| chris123 hove actually 14 Nov 19 3.36pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Not sure about that bit. I think Corbyn is sincere in wanting to hep the lower pay but all the while Labour have an open door immigration policy they are in conflict with each other. Basic supply and demand. Our minimum wage is about the same as France and Germany - defence is Labours' weak suit in my view.
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 Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 19 4.33pm |
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Originally posted by chris123
Our minimum wage is about the same as France and Germany - defence is Labours' weak suit in my view. Mass immigration is what everyone should be talking about.
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| Deleted11 14 Nov 19 4.39pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Mass immigration is what everyone should be talking about. If that's the case, then it's unlikely to be talked about.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 19 4.42pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
If that's the case, then it's unlikely to be talked about. Exactly. We are wedged between greed and ambition and the left wing media are happy to support it.
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| DanH SW2 14 Nov 19 4.52pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Mass immigration is what everyone should be talking about. I think you talk about it enough for all of us.
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| Deleted11 14 Nov 19 4.57pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Exactly. We are wedged between greed and ambition and the left wing media are happy to support it. It's a mixture, right? I'd say 90% of mainstream newspapers are right leaning. The BBC gets slated and I would say it is left leaning, but the take home point of all this is that the arguments are always on feelings and ideologies, which basically turns into a 'you're a racist, no you're a snowflake'. Just by reading the posts on these threads, people have a very limited understanding of how money works, thinking that austerity was absolutely necessary and comparing a country with it's own currency to Bob and Phil down the road who go to work everyday. Now, I'm not saying they are ignorant, but what I will say is that their views are largely dictated by the literature they read, which is based on their bias and newspapers like the Daily Mail, which, in my mind is an absolute disgrace of a newspaper, feed people crap without being questioned on it. So, if something like economics, which can be looked up and explained pretty easily isn't done right by the media, what hope do we have?
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| Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 19 5.15pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
It's a mixture, right? I'd say 90% of mainstream newspapers are right leaning. The BBC gets slated and I would say it is left leaning, but the take home point of all this is that the arguments are always on feelings and ideologies, which basically turns into a 'you're a racist, no you're a snowflake'. Just by reading the posts on these threads, people have a very limited understanding of how money works, thinking that austerity was absolutely necessary and comparing a country with it's own currency to Bob and Phil down the road who go to work everyday. Now, I'm not saying they are ignorant, but what I will say is that their views are largely dictated by the literature they read, which is based on their bias and newspapers like the Daily Mail, which, in my mind is an absolute disgrace of a newspaper, feed people crap without being questioned on it. So, if something like economics, which can be looked up and explained pretty easily isn't done right by the media, what hope do we have? 90%?
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